Snowflakes in action: the actual reality of "snowflakes" in the world and the consequences

[laughing dog]

Current data shows disparate results in the opposite direction than current discrimination.

Heh. If there was systemic racism favoring White people it wouldn’t look like this:

Actually, it could look like that. I am not saying that is evidence one way or the other, but it doesn't show what you think it does.

It doesn’t show that Asians are the top earners?

It is incredibly simplistic thinking that showing Asian are top earners is convincing evidence of a lack of systemic racism favoring Whites. Systematic racism make be systematic against certain ethnic or racial groups, not all of them. Moreover, systematic racism could simply hinder earnings of non-whites but still allow them to earn more than whites.

All I am saying is that graph does not provide convincing support for your argument. In fact, since it shows that Black and Hispanic earn less than White, it is consistent with the opposite of what you claim.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, these snowflakes (at least it is in Duluth, where there is real snow) are at it again:

White swim official wrongly demands 12 yr old swimmer take off BLM swimsuit

The 12-year-old Duluth girl, who is Black, was devastated by the news of the death of Amir Locke, who was killed by police Feb. 2 in Minneapolis. The bathing suit statement, said her mother, Sarah Lyons, was her show of support and her way of working through her sadness.
"She was really proud of it," Lyons said.
But at the Duluth YMCA-sponsored meet in Superior, Wis., on Sunday, Leidy was told by an official that she must change out of the suit or be disqualified......
The Superior High School event was officiated by USA Swimming. The volunteer head official told the girl her suit violated a USA Swimming political language policy, said Sara Cole, president of the Duluth YMCA.

Leaders from the nonprofit were notified and "swiftly disputed" the official's interpretation of policy, overruling the decision and removing the official from her post. Leidy, who had already dressed to go home, was reinstated. She returned to the pool to compete in her remaining events.

No, the official was in the right.

https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/rules-regulations/2021-rulebook.pdf

102.8 C: Advertising for the following shall not be allowed: (2) Political statements

Political speech is not allowed. "Black Lives Matter" is political speech.

It didn't even take me a minute to find that, the reporter obviously didn't look.

Black Lives Matter is no more political speech than "Eat Subway Sandwichs" is.

Regardless of what you think, the people running the swim meet disagreed with your interpretation.

 

[Trausti]

It is incredibly simplistic thinking that showing Asian are top earners is convincing evidence of a lack of systemic racism favoring Whites. Systematic racism make be systematic against certain ethnic or racial groups, not all of them. Moreover, systematic racism could simply hinder earnings of non-whites but still allow them to earn more than whites.

It you’re gonna hold that there’s persistent systemic racism, ya need to do better than could.

 

[Toni]

Wonderful. So recent immigrants get to claim benefits over White people because of historical wrongs. This isn’t a sham at all.

Which people do you think are recent immigrants? White people are certainly recent immigrants compared with indigenous peoples and also compared with at least some Hispanic people.

Do you believe that recent immigrants are not discriminated against because of the color of their skin/ethnicity? Country of origin?

The reality is that the recent immigrants, and especially the second generation immigrants, fare a lot better than the minorities that have been here a long time. That says skin color is not the main factor.

If only people TODAY were not discriminated against because of the color of their skin, their sex, their ethnicity.

The pattern remains, as current data shows.

Current data shows disparate results in the opposite direction than current discrimination.

Oh, I agree that skin color isn’t the (only) problem. I see how differently black Americans whose grandparents and great grandparents were born here are treated much worse than the newly arrived immigrants from African nations. You know: those who cane here the ‘right’ way—not born to descendants of enslaved people who were kidnapped and shipped here like cargo and sold.

We have not even begun to acknowledge that as a nation, we participated in slavery or that we still do not treat black Americans as equal to whites. Nor do we treat Native Americans as equal or Hispanic people or Asian people, as equal to whites. We like to point to the success of (some) more recent immigrant groups as proof of our lack of racism. We find it much more comfortable to ignore how we treat persons of color, especially those we enslaved and stole from.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, these snowflakes (at least it is in Duluth, where there is real snow) are at it again:

White swim official wrongly demands 12 yr old swimmer take off BLM swimsuit

The 12-year-old Duluth girl, who is Black, was devastated by the news of the death of Amir Locke, who was killed by police Feb. 2 in Minneapolis. The bathing suit statement, said her mother, Sarah Lyons, was her show of support and her way of working through her sadness.
"She was really proud of it," Lyons said.
But at the Duluth YMCA-sponsored meet in Superior, Wis., on Sunday, Leidy was told by an official that she must change out of the suit or be disqualified......
The Superior High School event was officiated by USA Swimming. The volunteer head official told the girl her suit violated a USA Swimming political language policy, said Sara Cole, president of the Duluth YMCA.

Leaders from the nonprofit were notified and "swiftly disputed" the official's interpretation of policy, overruling the decision and removing the official from her post. Leidy, who had already dressed to go home, was reinstated. She returned to the pool to compete in her remaining events.

No, the official was in the right.

https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/rules-regulations/2021-rulebook.pdf

102.8 C: Advertising for the following shall not be allowed: (2) Political statements

Political speech is not allowed. "Black Lives Matter" is political speech.

It didn't even take me a minute to find that, the reporter obviously didn't look.

I agree as some people do view it as "political speech", but the idea that "black lives matter" is viewed as "political" probably implies racism ain't so dead. It is too bad #BLM didn't go with #BLMT for "black lives matter too", to make it clear to fragile white snowflakes who fear black oppression in America.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Once again, disparate outcomes being presented as proof of discrimination.

Is this like the redlining where it turns out to be socioeconomic, not racial?

Redlining - the practice of explicitly banning people of minority race from settling in a neighborhood - is "not racial"? I'm not sure I want to hear the explanation for this one, but go ahead and try if you think this makes any sense.

Of course racial discrimination causes gaps in socioeconomic status. If it didn't, we wouldn't be worried about it.

At least locally there were big articles proclaiming redlining--but when you looked at the details there was absolutely nothing about keeping blacks out of white neighborhoods. Race had no bearing on the chance of approval given matching qualifications. The pattern they did find is banks didn't want to write low-down mortgages in bad neighborhoods. That's economic, not racial. There was only a racial pattern because it was disproportionately blacks applying for those particular loans.

 

[Gospel]

 

[Trausti]

Oh, I agree that skin color isn’t the (only) problem. I see how differently black Americans whose grandparents and great grandparents were born here are treated much worse than the newly arrived immigrants from African nations. You know: those who cane here the ‘right’ way—not born to descendants of enslaved people who were kidnapped and shipped here like cargo and sold.

Yes. That’s why recent West African immigrants do well, not because they’re a selective group of elites from their home country with high test scores.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Once again, disparate outcomes being presented as proof of discrimination.

Is this like the redlining where it turns out to be socioeconomic, not racial?

This is a hugely common fallacy employed by racists from both ends of the spectrum.
Confusing correlation with causation.
Tom

And then some delight in Ignoring what conditions created the current "socioeconomic" balance, which then feeds racists and their correlation/causation issue "at each end of the spectrum".

It shifted from being explicit to being "Minnesotan" about it. Which is to say, they do stuff that will get the effect while making it very difficult to reveal their behavior as explicitly linked to that goal.

Of course racism created it, I don't see anyone denying that. That doesn't mean you can fix the problem by removing the racism, or that the continued existence of the problem shows the racism is continuing.

You're the doctor in the ER prescribing a seat belt for a broken arm.

 

[Jarhyn]

Once again, disparate outcomes being presented as proof of discrimination.

Is this like the redlining where it turns out to be socioeconomic, not racial?

This is a hugely common fallacy employed by racists from both ends of the spectrum.
Confusing correlation with causation.
Tom

And then some delight in Ignoring what conditions created the current "socioeconomic" balance, which then feeds racists and their correlation/causation issue "at each end of the spectrum".

It shifted from being explicit to being "Minnesotan" about it. Which is to say, they do stuff that will get the effect while making it very difficult to reveal their behavior as explicitly linked to that goal.

Of course racism created it, I don't see anyone denying that. That doesn't mean you can fix the problem by removing the racism, or that the continued existence of the problem shows the racism is continuing.

You're the doctor in the ER prescribing a seat belt for a broken arm.

I'm a Dr in the ER prescribing fixing the damn roads, removing the drug war, ending prison slavery, and improving educational funding specifically to the lowest performing schools.

You know, pulling the bone inside the flesh, setting it correctly, etc.

People against measures that correct the enduring condition are saying "well, we can't fix the old fracture, it healed like that!" Pretending that you can't rebreak and reset a badly set bone... Yeah it'll suck, but living with a badly set break is worse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If course it's still red-lined, just in such a very Minnesotan way.

I know what racial redlining is, and what you're describing isn't it.

Back in the day, 50s-70s approximately, realtors and banks agreed on a policy. They drew lines on a map. Realtors only showed homes to people and banks only gave mortgages to people of the approved race for the area. That's redlining.

What's happening now is very different. Areas with declining property values are hard to get mortgages in because it increases the risk to banks. This accelerates the decline in property values. But it's nothing to do with race. Black people and white people aren't being treated differently. Everyone in an area is being treated alike, it's the area itself that banks are avoiding. Often the area is as large as a zipcode.

But it's a socio-economic problem, not a racism problem. And frankly, it's a cultural problem. It doesn't matter how reliably you make payments or maintain your home. If your neighbors don't, your assets lose value along with theirs.
Tom

For any particular instance, it may be racism or it may be socio-economic, or it may be combination of both. Without knowing the specifics, can be difficult to ascertain.

Same qualifications, same house: No difference in approval rates. It's not racism.

Again and again we see research purporting to show racism--but it almost inevitably fails to even consider the possibility that there are other causes. It's fine for whipping up the faithful but the continued failure to consider other explanations convinces the rest of us it's not worth looking at. You don't need lots of crap, you need a bit of high quality stuff--do a good job at controlling for socioeconomic factors. It's just when you actually do those controls the racism goes away.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Current data shows disparate results in the opposite direction than current discrimination.

Heh. If there was systemic racism favoring White people it wouldn’t look like this:

Actually, it could look like that. I am not saying that is evidence one way or the other, but it doesn't show what you think it does.

Children, today's special word is "amplitude".

 

[TomC]

Black Lives Matter is no more political speech than "Eat Subway Sandwichs" is.

Oh please, that's utterly ridiculous.

Not only that, but I'll bet that such commercial messages are also a problem.

Let me ask you, if a swimmer showed up with a "Stars and Bars" emblazoned on her swimsuit, or MAGA, would you agree that's not political speech?
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sorry that you are having difficulty understanding the study.

As for redlining not being real? I think I've written here that some years ago, when we were looking to buy our first home in another city/state, we were being shown houses in a particular neighborhood because the relator assumed we were Jewish. That's one form of redlining. We weren't harmed by it. We didn't mind being perceived as Jewish and would have purchased a home in one of those neighborhoods if we could have afforded one (we were outbid). But once we cleared up that we were not looking for a Jewish neighborhood (something she assumed---we never suggested), other neighborhoods suddenly were opened up to us. And we found a nice house we could afford in a neighborhood with excellent schools and a relatively diverse population.

But I'm sure you will believe what you want to believe and disregard... data.

I see no racism. The agent tried to select homes she thought you would want. You told her the pattern was wrong, she adjusted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except you are equating potential preference in race on an application with what was wealth seizure/prevention over several generations post slavery. We aren't simply talking about some black guy just had to go get a job somewhere else in 1911. Several generations of blacks, post slavery, endured intentional attempts to seize or restrict access to wealth, whether through actual theft of property/land, race riots destroying property, to laws/covenants/lining which impeded blacks from growing wealth through property and loans, that was intentionally aimed at ensuring blacks didn't get what they deserved, making it exponentially harder to develop family wealth with subsequent generations.

Equating the two is ignorant. AA, even after decades, hasn't even remotely scratched the surface in dealing with the wealth seizure/prevention.

Nothing can help that black guy in 1911. Giving a different black guy now a hand up does nothing to the past wrong. We need to make things right going forward. The past is the past, we can't change it, it has basically no bearing on the situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) You completely did not address my point.

2) You completely do not understand about affirmative action. You pretend that the beneficiaries are on an equal footing but people see the difference. The result taints all groups that benefit from diversity hires. This is not racism, this is a reality you want to deny. It's the same as the boss' nephew--might be ok but you're going to consider their qualifications suspect.

Maybe you can explain the difference that ‘people’ see and why say, black people are not on equal footing with white people.

I know that I agree with the statement that black people are not on equal footing with regards to access to jobs, education, establishing economic security, treatment at the hands of the legal system, medical community, housing, or education to name a few.

I honestly don’t understand what you are getting at in your second paragraph. Please explain it to me as though I’m stupid. I promise not to be offended if you need to dumb it down for me.

Affirmative action. In the real world we know there are people who got where they are from affirmative action rather than qualifications. This is the inevitable result of your attempts to fix things--which actually are an attempt to perpetuate the problem. And I'm not at all surprised that you didn't understand my point #2--the faithful very often can't comprehend blasphemy because it doesn't fit your worldview.

You are taking it as a given that someone who got where they are from AA is equal to someone that didn't. That's not the case in the real world.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Inheritance of generational wealth is one of those canards that refuses to die. The vast majority of millionaires today received little to no inheritance.

And most people receive no meaningful inheritance, period, millionaire or not. Even when people inherit appreciable money it's usually from their parents--and that usually is late enough in life that their path is already basically set.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is incredibly simplistic thinking that showing Asian are top earners is convincing evidence of a lack of systemic racism favoring Whites. Systematic racism make be systematic against certain ethnic or racial groups, not all of them. Moreover, systematic racism could simply hinder earnings of non-whites but still allow them to earn more than whites.

All I am saying is that graph does not provide convincing support for your argument. In fact, since it shows that Black and Hispanic earn less than White, it is consistent with the opposite of what you claim.

Asians used to be heavily discriminated against. Yet they're running away with that chart--what singled them out to succeed when other races continued to fare badly?

Hint: Culture! Asians strongly favor education. That's why they're pulling away from the pack.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, the official was in the right.

https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/rules-regulations/2021-rulebook.pdf

102.8 C: Advertising for the following shall not be allowed: (2) Political statements

Political speech is not allowed. "Black Lives Matter" is political speech.

It didn't even take me a minute to find that, the reporter obviously didn't look.

Black Lives Matter is no more political speech than "Eat Subway Sandwichs" is.

Regardless of what you think, the people running the swim meet disagreed with your interpretation.

It's a political movement. Not being for any particular candidate doesn't change that.

 

[laughing dog]

It you’re gonna hold that there’s persistent systemic racism, ya need to do better than could.

True. Just like if you are going to hold there isn’t, you have to better than meaningless graphs.