Snowflakes in action: the actual reality of "snowflakes" in the world and the consequences

[Hermit]

not quite--they were not totally estranged from their roots and communities and original cultures--nor had they seen their parents have their dignity stripped away from them by racist slavery, nor had they been socialized from birth up to think of themselves as abject objects, inferior to other-skinned humans.

You're listing cultural factors. Those can't be addressed by anti-discrimination efforts.

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm saying the proposed solution is utterly useless and just perpetuates the problem.

You've said more than that. You and a few others have asserted more than once that the cultural factors relating to African-Americans can't be placed at the feet of racism because just look at the Asians. So, if it is not due to racism, it must be due to _________. And its persistence is due to ________. Fill in the blanks, thanks.

 

[Trausti]

not quite--they were not totally estranged from their roots and communities and original cultures--nor had they seen their parents have their dignity stripped away from them by racist slavery, nor had they been socialized from birth up to think of themselves as abject objects, inferior to other-skinned humans.

You're listing cultural factors. Those can't be addressed by anti-discrimination efforts.

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm saying the proposed solution is utterly useless and just perpetuates the problem.

You've said more than that. You and a few others have asserted more than once that the cultural factors relating to African-Americans can't be placed at the feet of racism because just look at the Asians. So, if it is not due to racism, it must be due to _________. And its persistence is due to ________. Fill in the blanks, thanks.

Why are Black men so unlikely to marry the mother of their children? This puts their children at a distinct disadvantage, as children of any race raised in a single-parent household have lower social mobility. But nearly 2/3 of Black children are raised in single-parent households, more than any other race. Dads matter - a lot.

 

[Hermit]

not quite--they were not totally estranged from their roots and communities and original cultures--nor had they seen their parents have their dignity stripped away from them by racist slavery, nor had they been socialized from birth up to think of themselves as abject objects, inferior to other-skinned humans.

You're listing cultural factors. Those can't be addressed by anti-discrimination efforts.

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm saying the proposed solution is utterly useless and just perpetuates the problem.

You've said more than that. You and a few others have asserted more than once that the cultural factors relating to African-Americans can't be placed at the feet of racism because just look at the Asians. So, if it is not due to racism, it must be due to _________. And its persistence is due to ________. Fill in the blanks, thanks.

Why are Black men so unlikely to marry the mother of their children?

Go on. Explain to me why Black men are so unlikely to marry the mother of their children. I'll give you a start: if it is not due to racism, it must be due to _________. And its persistence is due to ________. Just fill in the blanks, thanks.

 

[Trausti]

not quite--they were not totally estranged from their roots and communities and original cultures--nor had they seen their parents have their dignity stripped away from them by racist slavery, nor had they been socialized from birth up to think of themselves as abject objects, inferior to other-skinned humans.

You're listing cultural factors. Those can't be addressed by anti-discrimination efforts.

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm saying the proposed solution is utterly useless and just perpetuates the problem.

You've said more than that. You and a few others have asserted more than once that the cultural factors relating to African-Americans can't be placed at the feet of racism because just look at the Asians. So, if it is not due to racism, it must be due to _________. And its persistence is due to ________. Fill in the blanks, thanks.

Why are Black men so unlikely to marry the mother of their children?

Go on. Explain to me why Black men are so unlikely to marry the mother of their children. I'll give you a start: if it is not due to racism, it must be due to _________. And its persistence is due to ________. Just fill in the blanks, thanks.

Well, no. Why is marriage and the nuclear family less frequent in the Black community? This wasn't always true. Before the 1960's, the White/Black marriage rate was the same. Perhaps government polices that discouraged family formation and promoted promiscuity . . . nah, never mind.

 

[Toni]

Foot, meet bullet.

…

You're still not showing racism.

Call it something else then.
In my book, when you enslave generations of a population based on their skin color, and turn them out on the street with no education or off-plantation skills, then blame them for not competing economically with educated, skilled Asians, that’s RACISM.
I don’t know what you’d call it, but you seem to have admitted to what I believe most non racist people would call institutional racism. If you have a more accurate name for it, please do offer it up.

PS - my condolences to your foot

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

No. They didn't. For one thing, the Chinese who were brought here to work on railroads were expected to return to China and many did. They were never owned; they were not enslaved in the US although their status was not much above enslaved people. Their children were not enslaved.

 

[Hermit]

not quite--they were not totally estranged from their roots and communities and original cultures--nor had they seen their parents have their dignity stripped away from them by racist slavery, nor had they been socialized from birth up to think of themselves as abject objects, inferior to other-skinned humans.

You're listing cultural factors. Those can't be addressed by anti-discrimination efforts.

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm saying the proposed solution is utterly useless and just perpetuates the problem.

You've said more than that. You and a few others have asserted more than once that the cultural factors relating to African-Americans can't be placed at the feet of racism because just look at the Asians. So, if it is not due to racism, it must be due to _________. And its persistence is due to ________. Fill in the blanks, thanks.

Why are Black men so unlikely to marry the mother of their children?

Go on. Explain to me why Black men are so unlikely to marry the mother of their children. I'll give you a start: if it is not due to racism, it must be due to _________. And its persistence is due to ________. Just fill in the blanks, thanks.

Well, no. Why is marriage and the nuclear family less frequent in the Black community? This wasn't always true. Before the 1960's, the White/Black marriage rate was the same. Perhaps government polices that discouraged family formation and promoted promiscuity . . .

Wrong. Firstly, before the 1960s nonmarital birth rates among blacks were approximately 900% higher than those among whites. By 2014 the difference had shrunk to a little over 100%. Secondly, if government polices had discouraged family formation and promoted promiscuity they had a greater effect on whites than blacks. The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

 

[Bomb#20]

Well, leftists appear to believe that. Rightists appear to believe it happens a fair amount. Both sides have an axe to grind; I'm not impressed by either side's objectivity on this point. But I don't think it's a coincidence that this controversy blew up at the same time as the Covid epidemic. For the first time, children were getting lessons by Zoom, so for the first time, parents were hearing at first hand what teachers were telling their children. Something ticked them off about it. And if what they were ticked off about was history being taught objectively and factually and SB 148 was intended to put a stop to that, then the legislators wouldn't have put in a clause specifically saying objective and factual teaching of history doesn't qualify as discrimination.

We have two huge triggers for this:

1) The rise of Trumpism.

You have made it abundantly clear, in post after post over a long period of time, that among the things you are consistently opposed to are (1) affirmative action, which you've called "racism", and (2) Donald Trump, whom you've called names unprintable in polite company. Clearly therefore, you are thoroughly aware that people are able to simultaneously oppose both racial discrimination in all forms including affirmative action, and Trump. Why, then, do you regard attempts to stop schools from teaching children to believe a heap of racially discriminatory ideology, in particular the opinion that affirmative action is a good thing and people of some races ought to be racially discriminated against, as an exercise in "Trumpism"?

2) SB8.

While I would consider other factors these are plenty adequate to explain this crap.

Okay, let's talk about SB8. SB8 is an attempt to achieve the Texas legislature's illegal objective by weaponizing anti-abortion private citizens. In order to do that, the lawyers who drew up SB8 understood that they needed to create "standing" -- they needed a clause in their law that specifically authorized private citizens to sue people for enabling abortions, so a court wouldn't react to some random yahoo complaining her neighbor drove his girlfriend to her abortion with "What's it to you?". Your contention is that SB148 is trying to do likewise: trying to achieve the Florida legislators' objective -- you said "Having a chilling effect on education is the intent of the law, not a fear." -- by weaponizing Trumpists or whoever to take schools to court over teaching such as your example, "it could make a racist uncomfortable and thus be close enough to the line that teachers would be afraid to do it."

Well, if that were their purpose, don't you think the Florida legislators would have taken care to include in SB148 a clause like the one in SB8, that makes making a racist uncomfortable actionable? In point of fact, they appear to have taken care not to do that. Can you point out anywhere in SB148 that gives anyone "standing" to sue over hurt feelings?

 

[Trausti]

The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

Well, the Black rate of single-parent homes still far exceeds all others. Dads matter. A lot.

And let's not be remiss and fail to mention the disproportionate crime rate of young Black men. They are more homicidal than any other group by a factor of what, 7 or 8? A review of the New York City annual crime stats is always informative. To ignore this elephant rampaging in the room makes discussion of disparities fruitless.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

Well, the Black rate of single-parent homes still far exceeds all others. Dads matter. A lot.

And let's not be remiss and fail to mention the disproportionate crime rate of young Black men. They are more homicidal than any other group by a factor of what, 7 or 8? A review of the New York City annual crime stats is always informative. To ignore this elephant rampaging in the room makes discussion of disparities fruitless.

Do you really want to discuss the elephant in the room? Because... it isn't what you think it is. That graph looks eerily similar to another graph, which points out the very likely cause of the disparity you are talking about.

 

[Trausti]

The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

Well, the Black rate of single-parent homes still far exceeds all others. Dads matter. A lot.

And let's not be remiss and fail to mention the disproportionate crime rate of young Black men. They are more homicidal than any other group by a factor of what, 7 or 8? A review of the New York City annual crime stats is always informative. To ignore this elephant rampaging in the room makes discussion of disparities fruitless.

Do you really want to discuss the elephant in the room? Because... it isn't what you think it is. That graph looks eerily similar to another graph, which points out the very likely cause of the disparity you are talking about.

View attachment 37327

What, that young Black men commit crime at a higher rate than any other group? From 1980 to 2008, they made up 6% of the US Pop but 52% of murderers.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

In 2019, 68% of those arrested for homicide/nonnegligent manslaughter were Black.

Table 49

ucr.fbi.gov

 

[Hermit]

The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

Well, the Black rate of single-parent homes still far exceeds all others. Dads matter. A lot.

And let's not be remiss and fail to mention the disproportionate crime rate of young Black men. They are more homicidal than any other group by a factor of what, 7 or 8? A review of the New York City annual crime stats is always informative. To ignore this elephant rampaging in the room makes discussion of disparities fruitless.

Well, let's accept that dads matter a lot for now, but we must then allow that they matter a lot, regardless of the child's or a single mother's ethnicity. So, let's look at the trend of all nonmarital births in the US and see if we can match it up against the trend of all violent crimes.

There is no correlation. Whoops.

 

[Metaphor]

The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

Well, the Black rate of single-parent homes still far exceeds all others. Dads matter. A lot.

And let's not be remiss and fail to mention the disproportionate crime rate of young Black men. They are more homicidal than any other group by a factor of what, 7 or 8? A review of the New York City annual crime stats is always informative. To ignore this elephant rampaging in the room makes discussion of disparities fruitless.

Well, let's accept that dads matter a lot for now, but we must then allow that they matter a lot, regardless of the child's or a single mother's ethnicity. So, let's look at the trend of all nonmarital births in the US and see if we can match it up against the trend of all violent crimes.

There is no correlation. Whoops.

First, that chart appears to be 'nonmarital births', not single parent families. They are not the same thing. I found out (after the fact) that the parents of one of my childhood friends were not technically married, though they were an intact nuclear family. On the other hand, I know of several families where the parents are technically married to each other, but the father is completely absent.

That children from single parent families are more likely to have a number of problems, criminal and non-criminal, is not disproven by the raw correlation coefficient between nonmarital births and violent crime 15 years later. A secular decline in violent crime can exist even as the partial correlation coefficient between single parent families and offspring criminality is positive.

 

[Toni]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

It would seem that epitome of racism to assume that Black people are incapable of achievement because of events that long preceded their birth. But that's the progressive ideology, I guess.

If only racism e died with the Emancipation Proclamation and formerly enslaved people were welcomed as full citizens with all the rights and privileges afforded white citizens, you’d have a point.

Instead you keep posting and disproving that point.

 

[Trausti]

The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

Well, the Black rate of single-parent homes still far exceeds all others. Dads matter. A lot.

And let's not be remiss and fail to mention the disproportionate crime rate of young Black men. They are more homicidal than any other group by a factor of what, 7 or 8? A review of the New York City annual crime stats is always informative. To ignore this elephant rampaging in the room makes discussion of disparities fruitless.

Well, let's accept that dads matter a lot for now, but we must then allow that they matter a lot, regardless of the child's or a single mother's ethnicity. So, let's look at the trend of all nonmarital births in the US and see if we can match it up against the trend of all violent crimes.

There is no correlation. Whoops.

Dads matter. A lot.

Percentage of children under age eighteen in families living in poverty, by child’s race/ethnicity and family structure, 2017

COE - Characteristics of Children’s Families

nces.ed.gov

 

[Trausti]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

It would seem that epitome of racism to assume that Black people are incapable of achievement because of events that long preceded their birth. But that's the progressive ideology, I guess.

If only racism e died with the Emancipation Proclamation and formerly enslaved people were welcomed as full citizens with all the rights and privileges afforded white citizens, you’d have a point.

Instead you keep posting and disproving that point.

The miasma theory of racism must be maintained, if for no other reason than to avoid the obvious that progressive policies often cause more harm than good.

 

[Hermit]

The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

Well, the Black rate of single-parent homes still far exceeds all others. Dads matter. A lot.

And let's not be remiss and fail to mention the disproportionate crime rate of young Black men. They are more homicidal than any other group by a factor of what, 7 or 8? A review of the New York City annual crime stats is always informative. To ignore this elephant rampaging in the room makes discussion of disparities fruitless.

Well, let's accept that dads matter a lot for now, but we must then allow that they matter a lot, regardless of the child's or a single mother's ethnicity. So, let's look at the trend of all nonmarital births in the US and see if we can match it up against the trend of all violent crimes.

There is no correlation. Whoops.

First, that chart appears to be 'nonmarital births', not single parent families. They are not the same thing. I found out (after the fact) that the parents of one of my childhood friends were not technically married, though they were an intact nuclear family. On the other hand, I know of several families where the parents are technically married to each other, but the father is completely absent.

Yes, that is a point worth noting. From a (somewhat dated) report by the Congressional Research Service titled "Nonmarital Births: An Overview":

According to several studies, a majority of nonmarital births now occur to cohabiting parents. During the period 2006-2010, it was estimated that 58% of nonmarital births were to cohabiting parents.

Recent data indicate that the notion that unmarried births equal mother-only families is no longer fully correct. The decline in the percentage of births to married women has in large measure been in tandem with the increase in births to parents who are living together but who are not married (in cohabiting relationships).

All you have to do now is to find the percentage of nonmarital children that do not live with unmarried parents, subtract it from the total of nonmarital children and see if you can find a correlation between that trend and the violent crime trend in the corresponding years. Good luck.

That children from single parent families are more likely to have a number of problems, criminal and non-criminal, is not disproven by the raw correlation coefficient between nonmarital births and violent crime 15 years later. A secular decline in violent crime can exist even as the partial correlation coefficient between single parent families and offspring criminality is positive.

Who exactly disputes that children from single parent families are more likely to have a number of problems, criminal and non-criminal? I, for one am happy to ignore that part of the issue for the purpose of the discussion. In fact, my argument is that accepting the claim that dads matter a lot is vital to my actual argument, which is: There is no correlation between the trend of number of children raised in a single-mother household and the trend of numbers of crimes being committed. If there were one, you could indisputably see it reflected in the chart.

 

[Hermit]

The rate of nonmarital births among whites increased fifteenfold while the rate among blacks was not much more than doubled.

Well, the Black rate of single-parent homes still far exceeds all others. Dads matter. A lot.

And let's not be remiss and fail to mention the disproportionate crime rate of young Black men. They are more homicidal than any other group by a factor of what, 7 or 8? A review of the New York City annual crime stats is always informative. To ignore this elephant rampaging in the room makes discussion of disparities fruitless.

Well, let's accept that dads matter a lot for now, but we must then allow that they matter a lot, regardless of the child's or a single mother's ethnicity. So, let's look at the trend of all nonmarital births in the US and see if we can match it up against the trend of all violent crimes.

There is no correlation. Whoops.

Dads matter. A lot.

Percentage of children under age eighteen in families living in poverty, by child’s race/ethnicity and family structure, 2017

COE - Characteristics of Children’s Families

nces.ed.gov

Fine. So, where is the correlation between unmarried births and crime? Look at the chart. The fact that there isn't one is staring you right in the face. In 1991 there were 758 violent crimes per 100,000 of the US population and 29.5% of births (Offset by 15 years to allow for the fact that they don't tend to embark on a criminal career showing up in official data until they are in their mid-teens) were nonmarital. By 2019 the crime rate had dropped to less than half while the percentage of nonmarital children had risen to 35.8.

Metaphor pointed out that there is a significant difference between nonmarital and single-mother households. Unfortunately he did not say how accounting for the difference would result in showing a correlation between trends in single-mother households and violent crimes. And neither have you.

 

[Metaphor]

All you have to do now is to find the percentage of nonmarital children that do not live with unmarried parents, subtract it from the total of nonmarital children and see if you can find a correlation between that trend and the violent crime trend in the corresponding years. Good luck.

No. It would be more complex than that.

Most single-parent households (85%+) are headed by women, so that is the context for the following. It's clear that 'nonmarital births' does not mean an absent father, nor does married parents mean the father is not absent. And of course there is always a cross-section count of 'single parent' households, but households can change from dual parent to single parent and other configurations. Is the negative effect of a single parent household greater if a child lives in a single parent household between ages 6-10, or greater if it is between ages 11-15?

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor pointed out that there is a significant difference between nonmarital and single-mother households. Unfortunately he did not say how accounting for the difference would result in showing a correlation between trends in single-mother households and violent crimes. And neither have you.

No, accounting for the difference is not the only unresolved problem. The question is 'do the children in single parent households have more problems (social, emotional, financial, health, criminal, etc) than other children? But a raw correlation between single-sex households and crime 15 years later would not answer that question, because crime can have its own secular trend.

Another way: it has always been the case that the height of children is correlated with the height of their biological parents. This is despite the case that height overall has increased remarkably among the population compared to a hundred years ago. That height has increased overall does not rule out the correlation between parent height and child height.

 

[Trausti]

Fine. So, where is the correlation between unmarried births and crime?

Not making that correlation. Just that children of single-parent households fair worse on life metrics, generally, than their married-household peers. The disproportionately high offender rate in the Black community is nonetheless significant when comparing group disparities. It should not be surprising at all that a group with high illegitimacy and crime rates has poorer outcomes than groups that do not have these characteristics. Compare Asians who have high marriage and low crime rates - how do they do socially/economically? If Black men married more and committed less crime, many group disparities would abate.