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Is a rainbow a physical object?

Is a rainbow a physical object?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 58.8%
  • No

    Votes: 3 17.6%
  • Yes and No

    Votes: 4 23.5%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    17
Rainbows are physical phenomena. A physical "object" is a useful abstraction for living our day to day lives that more or less maps onto "some solid-state grouping of matter that is more defined by its function than its composition".

So, just like "species" or "reptiles", it is a useful abstraction that maybe doesn't rigoursly map into reality all the time.

Can you name something that rigorously maps into reality all the time? Or something that is not an abstraction of some kind? Or a physical object that is not also a physical phenomenon? A book certainly exists when nobody is reading it or looking at it. Does a rainbow?

No, I cannot name such a thing. But I can certainly say some things map more rigorously / coherently onto reality than others.

That isn't to say that less rigorous abstractions aren't useful. Consider a lot of organic chemistry. With what essentially boils down to Lewis diagrams, a few heuristics, some knowledge of the periodic table and the electronegativity of a various elements, and a few rules of thumb, there are people who have the power to act as something akin to the alchemists of lore.

A lot of what is done by synthetic organic chemists can certainly be informed by more rigorous, physical chemistry approaches, but that doesn't mean that the less rigorous approaches aren't useful, or even in some cases, more useful because they work well enough.


In any event, yes, I think a rainbow is exactly like, say, a rock. The perception of a rock and a rainbow obviously would not exist without perceivers. But just like a rock, a blind scientist could, with the aid of various instruments, identify what others would call a rainbow and a blind geologist could identify what others would call a rock.
 
Consider the fact that the rainbow does not exist independently of the observer, because one would see different rainbows from different perspectives. The observer has to be in a location where the refraction of light through water will produce the perceptual effect. Hence, from a physical perspective, there are as many rainbows as there are potential observers in suitable locations in order to experience the illusion. However, an observer is necessary in order for the rainbow to be reified. Otherwise, it is just light (photons) passing through water. Is the same true for a table or a rock? Is the observer necessary in order for those objects to undergo a reification process?

Well, I think when you said, "it is just light (photons) passing through water" you may well have answered the OP question.

But on the other thing, maybe there are differences between tables and rainbows in the way you're exploring. But how different? I mean, no two observers (human or manmade) see the same table either.

I might say that neither the table nor the photons need to be reified in order to exist physically.

What I meant by "it is just..." was that it was not a "rainbow" without an observer to render it as such. Reification requires an interaction between the physical conditions and the interpreter/observer of such conditions. There has to be an observer's perspective to make the rainbow actually exist.


According to a link, "Thus, a rainbow is not an object and cannot be physically approached."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow

The answer hinges on what it means to say of something that it's an object.

One might think "yes and no" is applicable, but not as a contradiction.

Well, I'm not so sure about that. Being able to handle contradictions is essential to our analysis of reality, and optical illusions (actually, any type of illusion) involves a contradiction on some level. The contradiction represents a shift in perspective. You cannot observe a phenomenon from two different perspectives simultaneously. You have to bounce back and forth between them. That is what makes illusions so interesting. And what your link says that I think is fundamental to this discussion is that rainbows are illusions. One question in my mind is whether anything that is "real" can ever be anything other than an illusion. Another is whether the "observer" need necessarily be animate.


Rainbows are physical phenomena. A physical "object" is a useful abstraction for living our day to day lives that more or less maps onto "some solid-state grouping of matter that is more defined by its function than its composition".

So, just like "species" or "reptiles", it is a useful abstraction that maybe doesn't rigoursly map into reality all the time.

Can you name something that rigorously maps into reality all the time? Or something that is not an abstraction of some kind? Or a physical object that is not also a physical phenomenon? A book certainly exists when nobody is reading it or looking at it. Does a rainbow?

No, I cannot name such a thing. But I can certainly say some things map more rigorously / coherently onto reality than others.

That isn't to say that less rigorous abstractions aren't useful. Consider a lot of organic chemistry. With what essentially boils down to Lewis diagrams, a few heuristics, some knowledge of the periodic table and the electronegativity of a various elements, and a few rules of thumb, there are people who have the power to act as something akin to the alchemists of lore.

A lot of what is done by synthetic organic chemists can certainly be informed by more rigorous, physical chemistry approaches, but that doesn't mean that the less rigorous approaches aren't useful, or even in some cases, more useful because they work well enough.

In any event, yes, I think a rainbow is exactly like, say, a rock. The perception of a rock and a rainbow obviously would not exist without perceivers. But just like a rock, a blind scientist could, with the aid of various instruments, identify what others would call a rainbow and a blind geologist could identify what others would call a rock.

Here's a question. Is a camera a valid type of "observer"? Does it have a "perspective" that is in some sense like the perspective of an animate observer such as an animal? After all, cameras can detect and interpret the same spectrum of light wavelengths that humans can. They produce physical objects that humans recognize as pictures of rainbows.
 
What I meant by "it is just..." was that it was not a "rainbow" without an observer to render it as such. Reification requires an interaction between the physical conditions and the interpreter/observer of such conditions. There has to be an observer's perspective to make the rainbow actually exist.

Ok. So, how about this, it's the same for a table, even though it seems otherwise.

What I mean is that there is no 'table' actually there. It just looks like it to the human eye. If a human was the size of a photon (yes I'm aware I'm speaking of something that itself might not be a physical object either) it wouldn't see a table and if it approached something a human would call a table it would pass through. This is one reason you should never have a dinner date with a photon.

Could we even make a case that there are no objects at all? Except in a colloquial or folk psychology sense.

Incidentally, would it be fair to say that you are really asking if a rainbow is an object? I say that because I think you would agree that it is made up of physical stuff, that there is nothing non-physical involved, ie no substance duality. I think when I answered yes in the poll, I was not clear on this, and all I was saying was that yes a rainbow is a physical.....well let's say phenomenon. I'm currently not sure I'd call it an object.

Here's a question. Is a camera a valid type of "observer"? Does it have a "perspective" that is in some sense like the perspective of an animate observer such as an animal? After all, cameras can detect and interpret the same spectrum of light wavelengths that humans can. They produce physical objects that humans recognize as pictures of rainbows.

I would say that a camera is a valid observer, yes.
 
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Here's a question. Is a camera a valid type of "observer"? Does it have a "perspective" that is in some sense like the perspective of an animate observer such as an animal? After all, cameras can detect and interpret the same spectrum of light wavelengths that humans can. They produce physical objects that humans recognize as pictures of rainbows.
I'm not entirely sure I understand exactly what you are asking. But I'm going to say no, it isn't, not in the context I have been using. But this seems to be veering into a rather deep tangent, the nature of being a subject, etc. So, what are you getting at?
 
This is not a trick question. Would you call a rainbow a "physical object"? If not, why not? What is the difference between a rainbow and what you would describe as a physical object? Just to make this really interesting, I'm going to allow the option of a contradictory answer to the main question.

Colloquially no. In everyday speech objects have edges that can manipulated physically. But even here a physical object can be something that we can detect with our senses... that's certainly true.

But philosophically, yes, because anything that can referenced at all is an object.

So it depends what kind of object you mean
 
What I meant by "it is just..." was that it was not a "rainbow" without an observer to render it as such. Reification requires an interaction between the physical conditions and the interpreter/observer of such conditions. There has to be an observer's perspective to make the rainbow actually exist.


According to a link, "Thus, a rainbow is not an object and cannot be physically approached."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow

The answer hinges on what it means to say of something that it's an object.

One might think "yes and no" is applicable, but not as a contradiction.

Well, I'm not so sure about that. Being able to handle contradictions is essential to our analysis of reality, and optical illusions (actually, any type of illusion) involves a contradiction on some level. The contradiction represents a shift in perspective. You cannot observe a phenomenon from two different perspectives simultaneously. You have to bounce back and forth between them. That is what makes illusions so interesting. And what your link says that I think is fundamental to this discussion is that rainbows are illusions. One question in my mind is whether anything that is "real" can ever be anything other than an illusion. Another is whether the "observer" need necessarily be animate.


Rainbows are physical phenomena. A physical "object" is a useful abstraction for living our day to day lives that more or less maps onto "some solid-state grouping of matter that is more defined by its function than its composition".

So, just like "species" or "reptiles", it is a useful abstraction that maybe doesn't rigoursly map into reality all the time.

Can you name something that rigorously maps into reality all the time? Or something that is not an abstraction of some kind? Or a physical object that is not also a physical phenomenon? A book certainly exists when nobody is reading it or looking at it. Does a rainbow?

No, I cannot name such a thing. But I can certainly say some things map more rigorously / coherently onto reality than others.

That isn't to say that less rigorous abstractions aren't useful. Consider a lot of organic chemistry. With what essentially boils down to Lewis diagrams, a few heuristics, some knowledge of the periodic table and the electronegativity of a various elements, and a few rules of thumb, there are people who have the power to act as something akin to the alchemists of lore.

A lot of what is done by synthetic organic chemists can certainly be informed by more rigorous, physical chemistry approaches, but that doesn't mean that the less rigorous approaches aren't useful, or even in some cases, more useful because they work well enough.

In any event, yes, I think a rainbow is exactly like, say, a rock. The perception of a rock and a rainbow obviously would not exist without perceivers. But just like a rock, a blind scientist could, with the aid of various instruments, identify what others would call a rainbow and a blind geologist could identify what others would call a rock.

Here's a question. Is a camera a valid type of "observer"? Does it have a "perspective" that is in some sense like the perspective of an animate observer such as an animal? After all, cameras can detect and interpret the same spectrum of light wavelengths that humans can. They produce physical objects that humans recognize as pictures of rainbows.

I think you're right. That it's an illusion (an illusion in fact and not just a claim as such) makes a huge difference. I stand corrected.
 
This is not a trick question. Would you call a rainbow a "physical object"? If not, why not? What is the difference between a rainbow and what you would describe as a physical object? Just to make this really interesting, I'm going to allow the option of a contradictory answer to the main question.

Colloquially no. In everyday speech objects have edges that can manipulated physically. But even here a physical object can be something that we can detect with our senses... that's certainly true.

But philosophically, yes, because anything that can referenced at all is an object.

So it depends what kind of object you mean
...Exactly...

The question, like so many philosophy and metaphysics questions, is a piss poor and ambiguous question. The question here is not about the nature of rainbows at all but about what the hell the question is asking. The real, unasked question is what is the definition of "physical object". Once defined, the answer to the op is simple. My question would be why the hell the red herring of the rainbow.
 
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This is not a trick question. Would you call a rainbow a "physical object"? If not, why not? What is the difference between a rainbow and what you would describe as a physical object? Just to make this really interesting, I'm going to allow the option of a contradictory answer to the main question.

Colloquially no. In everyday speech objects have edges that can manipulated physically. But even here a physical object can be something that we can detect with our senses... that's certainly true.

But philosophically, yes, because anything that can referenced at all is an object.

So it depends what kind of object you mean
...Exactly...

The question, like so many philosophy and metaphysics questions, is a piss poor and ambiguous question. The question here is not about the nature of rainbows at all but about what the hell the question is asking. The real, unasked question is what is the definition of "physical object". Once defined, the answer to the op is simple. My question would be why the hell the red herring of the rainbow.
Much of what I've said has addressed this. (I think)

Not everything is an object, even if some things while not objects in the narrow sense are objects in the broad sense.

A mental object is not an object in the narrow sense, yet it is an object in the broad sense, but an imaginary object is no more a type of object than is a toy car a type of car. It's a kind of toy. With an imaginary object, there is no presence of something. While an illusion is either a meteorological phenomenon or product of one, it's certainly not a physical object--even though there could be no illusions without any.

(I feel I'm flip flopping like a fish out of water)
 
Take a large glass prism and put it in sunlight nd observe the spectrum.

Photons are real. The prism is r3eal and an object/

Water is real and an object. Light is real as is the spectrum of a rainbow. Does a rainbow fit the definitions of oblect?

Multiple definitions. As with all words, meaning is often contextual.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/object

Definition of object (Entry 1 of 3)
1a : something material that may be perceived by the senses
I see an object in the distance.
b : something that when viewed stirs a particular emotion (such as pity)
Look on the tragic loading of this bed … the object poisons sight; let it be hid.
— William Shakespeare
2a : something mental or physical toward which thought, feeling, or action is directed
an object for study
the object of my affection
delicately carved art objects
b : something physical that is perceived by an individual and becomes an agent for psychological identification
The mother is the primary object of the child.
3a : the goal or end of an effort or activity : PURPOSE, OBJECTIVE
Their object is to investigate the matter thoroughly.
The object of the game is to score the most points.
b : a cause for attention or concern
Money is no object.
4 : a thing that forms an element of or constitutes the subject matter of an investigation or science
objects of study
5a : a noun or noun equivalent (such as a pronoun, gerund, or clause) denoting the goal or result of the action of a verb (such as ball in I hit the ball)
b : a noun or noun equivalent in a prepositional phrase (such as table in on the table)
6a : a data structure in object-oriented programming that can contain functions (see FUNCTION entry 1 sense 7) as well as constants, variables, and other data structures
b : a discrete entity (such as a window or icon) in computer graphics (see GRAPHIC entry 2 sense 2b) that can be manipulated independently of other such entities
 
I voted 'yes and no' because the physical elements are there, water droplets, sunlight, but these are not in the form of a rainbow as interpreted and perceived by a brain.
 
A rainbow is not water droplets.

A rainbow is something experienced in a mind because of water droplets and the refractory property of light.

A rainbow is something experienced only in a mind.

That is all it is.

Objects are not in the mind.
 
I voted 'yes and no' because the physical elements are there, water droplets, sunlight, but these are not in the form of a rainbow as interpreted and perceived by a brain.
The part we perceive is the light. So unless one is ready to argue that light isn't a physical object, it seems like this question is mostly wanking sophistry.

And someone wants to argue light isn't a physical object, I have some friends on a navy destroyer that I can try to arrange a demonstration for you. ;)
 
We don't perceive light.

Light is a stimulus to some of the cells of the eye.

The brain creates the response to this stimulation. "We" (a mind) perceive the response to light, not light.

The brain creates color whole. Color is not something that exists outside of a mind that is experiencing it.

The rainbow is the colors and how they are arranged and where they appear to be.

The rainbow is not the things that cause a brain to create the colors. That is the stimulus for the mental production of a rainbow.

Rainbows exist only in the mind.
 
This is not a trick question. Would you call a rainbow a "physical object"? If not, why not? What is the difference between a rainbow and what you would describe as a physical object? Just to make this really interesting, I'm going to allow the option of a contradictory answer to the main question.

Colloquially no. In everyday speech objects have edges that can manipulated physically. But even here a physical object can be something that we can detect with our senses... that's certainly true.

But philosophically, yes, because anything that can referenced at all is an object.

So it depends what kind of object you mean
...Exactly...

The question, like so many philosophy and metaphysics questions, is a piss poor and ambiguous question. The question here is not about the nature of rainbows at all but about what the hell the question is asking. The real, unasked question is what is the definition of "physical object". Once defined, the answer to the op is simple. My question would be why the hell the red herring of the rainbow.
Much of what I've said has addressed this. (I think)

Not everything is an object, even if some things while not objects in the narrow sense are objects in the broad sense.

A mental object is not an object in the narrow sense, yet it is an object in the broad sense, but an imaginary object is no more a type of object than is a toy car a type of car. It's a kind of toy. With an imaginary object, there is no presence of something. While an illusion is either a meteorological phenomenon or product of one, it's certainly not a physical object--even though there could be no illusions without any.

(I feel I'm flip flopping like a fish out of water)

Given the popularity of this kind of response, I feel that I need to address it, especially since it calls for a little linguistic analysis. I'll try to keep it as brief and nontechnical as possible, but lexical semantics (and lexicology) is one of my areas of special expertise. However, the question isn't just linguistic, because it has to do with how we model physical reality.

First of all, nobody is seriously questioning whether a rainbow is a physical phenomenon, but calling it an "object" biases the discussion in a subtle way. The word object is a count noun, as opposed to a mass noun. It is a countable thing. Mass nouns like water need to be quantified before we can count them: "glass/bucket/tub of water". No concept is inherently countable, so some languages lack count nouns. Their nouns just refer to "substance" or "stuff", and they have special linguistic processes for adding countability when context requires it. What it means semantically for something to be a count noun is that it incorporates the unit of measurement in the meaning of the word. Hence, it sounds a bit odd to ask whether air or water is a "physical object", because those mass nouns are not inherently quantified on their own. Rainbows are countable, but they don't have to be. English just renders them that way. We are not interested in the semantics of count and mass nouns, but the semantic property of countability can get in the way of the metaphysical nature of rainbows. Lets just ignore countability.

Now we can look at other semantic properties that distinguish rainbows from other physical phenomena and objects. Rainbows are not tangible. You cannot touch them. In fact, you cannot even approach them, because they are optical illusions caused by physical atmospheric conditions. So that makes them seem, at first blush, to be different from rocks and trees. We interact with them differently than we interact with rocks and trees, which are tangible objects. But are rocks and trees not also "optical illusions" in a sense? They have physical properties that rainbows do not, but we also interact with them as visual objects.

What I think is really important in this discussion is not the particular physical attributes of the objects that we interact with in our reality, but the manner in which we interact with them. Let's call the manner of interaction an affordance, where manner of interaction is defined and limited by the sensory equipment (and cognitive processing) inherent in the human body. Word definitions do not always make reference to affordances, but they are an essential semantic component of all concepts, even abstract ones. Physical things--objects, substances, events--are especially defined in terms of how the peripheral nervous system interacts with them--vision, smell, taste, touch, sound, etc. In that sense, a rainbow is as much a physical object as anything else, but it has unique interactive properties--affordances--that distinguish it from other physical objects.

So here is a related question. When you sit down, you form a "lap". A baby can sit on your lap. Is your lap therefore a physical object? I think most people would be as troubled by that question as the one about rainbows, but rainbows aren't tangible. Laps are. OTOH, laps only come into existence when you sit, and they go out of existence when you straighten your body out. Like any physical object, their existence persists for a limited amount of time. They have a temporal beginning and an end. But their temporal lifespans are so much more limited than those of trees and rocks. How would that translate into the language of an alien civilization whose members could not form laps? They would have to know about human anatomy to even begin to know what one was, but they still wouldn't know of what use laps were to us. Nor would they necessarily have a sensory basis for understanding what a rainbow was.
 
...nobody is seriously questioning whether a rainbow is a physical phenomenon...

The stimuli for the mental production of a rainbow is a physical phenomena.

A rainbow is a mental phenomena.

It is trivially true that all perceptual experiences are mental phenomena. Nobody is seriously questioning that either.
 
The object of my thinking at the moment is this tnread. A to me a nonsenesucal question, is the thread an object?

Peggy Sue is the object of my addictions.

The map is not the countryside. The chemical state of the brain in response to seeing a rainbow is not external reality, but the brain is real and an object. It is nonsensical to start debating whether perceptions are real.
 
...nobody is seriously questioning whether a rainbow is a physical phenomenon...

The stimuli for the mental production of a rainbow is a physical phenomena.

A rainbow is a mental phenomena.

It is trivially true that all perceptual experiences are mental phenomena. Nobody is seriously questioning that either.

If it is true it is not trivial.

A rainbow is perceived colors in a perceived sky.

They do not exist anywhere besides in minds that perceive.

Only the stimulus could exist external to the mind.

But that things exist external to the mind is just a faith.

This is only if we want to get to the bottom of things.

If we want to gleefully skim the surface then yes, that rainbow is in the sky, not the mind.
 
The object of my thinking at the moment is this tnread. A to me a nonsenesucal question, is the thread an object?

Peggy Sue is the object of my addictions.

You have discovered lexical ambiguity, aka homonymy. An "object" can refer to a physical thing. It can also refer to something that a feeling is directed at. I hope that you do not object to my pointing this out to you.

The map is not the countryside. The chemical state of the brain in response to seeing a rainbow is not external reality, but the brain is real and an object. It is nonsensical to start debating whether perceptions are real.

I am not debating whether perceptions are real, so I sympathize with your point. Nor am I claiming that a "state" of the brain is external reality. What we are discussing is the nature of so-called "external reality". It seems clear to me that the mind can only ever conceive of an external reality in terms of an idealized model of some sort--one built up out of subjective experiences. Some models are superior to others as predictors of future outcomes.

...
If we want to gleefully skim the surface then yes, that rainbow is in the sky, not the mind.

So, you believe that the "sky" is something that is not "in the mind", right?
 
I like the fact that, at this point in time, the survey shows a split between 5 "yes" votes and 5 alternatives, i.e. three "no" and two "yes and no". That suggests that people are really giving this question some serious thought.
 
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