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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

The models are true in that the models are predicative.

The computer you use is designed using models of physics including how light propagates. Maxwell's Equations. Been there done that.

The GPS system is affected by time dilation and time delay of light. Satellites at a different gravitational potential and speed than ground stations. It has to be corrected for or the GPS system would not work.
GPS systems do not negate that we see in real time. There is nothing here that contradicts his observations.

How GPS clocks work:
  1. GPS satellites orbit the Earth, constantly broadcasting signals that contain time and location data. Each satellite is equipped with its own atomic clock, synchronized to a universal time standard.
  2. GPS receivers on Earth pick up these signals, calculating their exact location by measuring the time delay between the satellite signals.
  3. Each GPS satellite contains multiple atomic clocks, contributing precise time data to the GPS signals. GPS receivers decode these signals, synchronizing each receiver to the atomic clocks.
  4. GPS clocks provide access to atomic time standards without needing a local atomic clock
We have not had a science denier on the forum in a long time. The efficacy of science is manifested in all the technology you use and do not understand.
I do not deny science Steve. This work is based on science.

Science will actually govern Earth, but without telling one person what he must do. If the scientists determine that the population on earth is beginning to get crowded, they will announce this, and the very fact that you will never be blamed for this overcrowding which hurts the economy will compel you, of your own free will, to desire limiting your family in accordance with what is best for everyone. The total needs of the economic system would determine the size of the population, and all this would be included in the general information given to the public so each person could decide for himself which direction is better for him to take.
When you fly on a jet onboard weather RADAR to find storms, voice radio, and GPS. VOR aviation navigation system. Very High Frequency Omni Directional Range.

Nothing in your posts or the book offers a testable predictable model for what you claim.
You don't even know what his demonstration is, yet you know he's wrong. :confused2:
How GPS clocks work:
  1. GPS satellites orbit the Earth, constantly broadcasting signals that contain time and location data. Each satellite is equipped with its own atomic clock, synchronized to a universal time standard.
  2. GPS receivers on Earth pick up these signals, calculating their exact location by measuring the time delay between the satellite signals.
  3. Each GPS satellite contains multiple atomic clocks, contributing precise time data to the GPS signals. GPS receivers decode these signals, synchronizing each receiver to the atomic clocks.
  4. GPS clocks provide access to atomic time standards without needing a local atomic clock
So, deny away. It is not a violation of the constitution or forum rules.
I'm not denying away. I'm not in denial at all.
One of the questions regrading relativity and time dilation is synchronizer clocks. In GP time dil;ation has to be compensated for. Clocks in orbit run at different speeds than on the ground.

Time dilation was a major scientific and philosophic change. Newtonian time was considered immutable. The atomic model when demonstrated caused a philosophical stir. The concept of sold matter came into question. Small atoms separated by relatively vast inter atomic spaces.

To somebody on the ground and on the ISS a second is still a second and the speed of light is still C, but elapsed time on different frames appear different. The inference is that people will age at different rates in different frames.

X ray diffraction of metals showed tiny nodes separated by spaces in the ate 19th century.


Time dilation affects the Global Positioning System (GPS) in a few ways:

General relativity
Clocks in a weaker gravitational field run faster than clocks in a stronger gravitational field. This means that a GPS satellite's clock will gain about 45 microseconds per day compared to a clock on Earth's surface. However, the satellite's velocity also causes a negative time dilation effect, meaning its clock will actually run slower than a clock on Earth by about 7 microseconds per day. The net effect is that a GPS satellite's clock will run about 38 microseconds faster per day than a clock on Earth.


 
Peacegirl

As to your author being dead, when interpreting dead authors who left a single work the author is not around to comment on how it is interpreted.

He is not around to update thinking based on newer science.

Aristotle is a major historical figure, but as someone posted elsewhere today he is anhistrical footnote.
 
PeaceGirl, you must have really loved your father. I think that's beautiful. I remember this thread from another message board. Maybe talk rational or Richard Dawkins forum? At the time I read quite a bit of what you offered of his book and iirc you were asking people to buy the book for more. Is that still the case?

Anyway, I have entirely forgotten the contents so I just skimmed the intro and ToC of the book and I have to say that, while the sentiment seems nice and there may even be some valuable insight available in the book, deliverance from evil isn't really something I feel strongly about and anyway evil is in the eye of the beholder.

I remember another person who had a very similar argument using determinism in much the same way. His name was Ontic at Talk Rational, maybe he posts here. If so, you could find something of a kindred spirit there.

Aside from that, in a complexity regime which is what life is, causality is only a coherent concept at very gross levels. Rather emergence and adaptation are the foundations and static equilibrium doesn't happen at all. There is no end state. Or, that's my paradigm and it's very useful to me. Determinism is great in closed systems with few interactions. Outside of that, everything is caused by everything so I can't really go down this road with you. Also, I am already as happy as I want to be and the rest of the world is on their own as far as that goes. They all seem to be a bit crazy to me.

Anyway, thanks for having the link posted.

Peace out
 
Omg. Has this thread been going on for like 15 years?!? I remember this from waaaaaaaaaaay back
If you take into account all the threads on free will and determinism in various forms longer that that.

New threads on free will and determinism pop up periodically and the same debates ensue.

This thread has a twist, it includes how the eye works as some kind of proof.
 
You didn't read the book either Pood.
You appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that anyone who doesn't agree with the book must not have read the book. This is absolutely false, for any book.

But it widely believed by religionists, of their own favourite book(s).
No one has read the book, bilby, not even Pood. I will bet my right arm that he hasn't read it because he doesn't own it, he never did. All these years he just grabbed excerpts and made fun of the author when it was taken out of context. The author also created some humor as comic relief. But as time went on, the aggression got worse and worse. I'll never go through that again.

You took all the humor out, the best stuff in the book, about the “juicy, juicy C’s,” the ur-Penis etc.

And yes, I have read all of the relevant stuff about light and sight, and it’s wrong, for reasons indicated.
So what was his demonstration that explained what he believed was going on? You don't know Pood. Just say it, is it that hard? I DON'T KNOW.

No, I don’t know, because he didn’t given any demonstration! I’ve told you this a million times. Asserting that seeing is efferent (false), that dogs can’t recognize their masters by sight alone (false), and that “words are projected onto an undeniable screen of substance” (incomprehensible) are a “demonstration” of exactly nothing.

Bilby explained what a demonstration would be. So, demonstrate.
I'm not posting the entire chapter again. I'll post the beginning and if doesn't whet anyone's appetite, there's nothing I can do about it because I'm not going to state this chapter in my own words. It's hard enough to state something that everybody disagrees with so it would be suicidal if I didn't let him do the talking since he was the discoverer, not me. If no one is interested after this small introduction, I am not going to continue and put myself in a vulnerable position.


CHAPTER FOUR

WORDS, NOT REALITY​



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ur problem of hurting each other is very deep-rooted and begins with words through which we have not been allowed to see reality for what it really is. Supposing I stood up in one of our universities and said, “Ladies and gentlemen, I am prepared to prove that man does not have five senses, which has nothing to do with a sixth sense,” wouldn’t all the professors laugh and say, “Are you serious or are you being funny? You can’t be serious because everybody knows man has five senses. This is an established fact.” The definition of epistemology is the theory or science of the method and grounds of knowledge, especially with reference to its limits and validity. For the modern empiricist, the only way knowledge becomes ‘stamped’ onto the human conscience is through internal and external sensations or through sense experience. But there is surprising evidence that the eyes are not a sense organ. The idea that man has five senses originated with Aristotle, and it has never been challenged. He did this just as naturally as we would name anything to identify it. But he made an assumption that the eyes functioned like the other senses, so he included them in the definition. This is equivalent to calling an apple, pear, peach, orange, and potato five fruit. The names given to these foods describe differences in substance that exist in the real world, but we certainly could not call them five fruit since this word excludes the potato, which is not grown in the same manner as is described by the word fruit. Believe it or not, the eyes, similar to the potato in the above example, were classified in a category to which they did not belong. We cannot name the organs with which we communicate with the outside world — the five senses — when they do not function alike. Aristotle, however, didn’t know this. His logic and renown delayed an immediate investigation of his theory because no one dared oppose the genius of this individual without appearing ridiculous for such audacity, which brought about almost unanimous agreement. To disagree was so presumptuous that nobody dared to voice their disagreement because this would only incur disdainful criticism. Everyone believed that such a brilliant individual, such a genius, had to know whereof he spoke. This is not a criticism of Aristotle or of anyone. But even today, we are still in agreement regarding a fallacious observation about the brain and its relation to the eyes. Those who will consider the possibility that you might have a discovery reveal their confusion by trying to nullify any value to it with this comment, as was made to me, “What difference does it make what we call them as a group, this isn’t going to change who we are. Whether we call them five senses or four senses and a pair of eyes, is certainly not going to change them in any way.” However, if man doesn’t really have five senses, isn’t it obvious that just as long as we think otherwise, we will be prevented from discovering those things that depend on this knowledge for their discovery? Consequently, it does make a difference what we call them. Just as my first discovery was not that man’s will is not free but the knowledge revealed by opening that door for a thorough investigation, so likewise, my second discovery is not that man does not have five senses but what significant knowledge lies hidden behind this door. Many years later, we have an additional problem that is more difficult to overcome because this fallacious observation has graduated dogmatically into what is considered genuine knowledge, for it is actually taught in school as an absolute fact, and our professors, doctors, etc. would be ready to take up arms, so to speak, against anyone who would dare oppose what they have come to believe is the truth without even hearing, or wanting to hear any evidence to the contrary. I am very aware that if I am not careful, the resentment of these people will nail me to a cross, and they would do it in the name of justice and truth. However, it appears that they will not be given the opportunity because the very moment the will of God is perceived and understood, man is given no alternative as to what direction he must travel, which is away from condemning someone who has uncovered a falsehood. The real truth is that there are thousands upon thousands of differences existing in the external world, but when words do not describe these differences accurately, we are then seeing a distorted version of what exists — as with free will.

Mankind has been slowly developing and if you go back far enough in history you will find that we believed pregnancy was caused by the bite of an enamored snake, which prevented many girls from bathing at certain times but never prevented them from mating. Today we have thousands of lesser Aristotle’s preventing breakthroughs into various hermetically sealed doors. We call them professors and Ph.D.s. Again, this is not a criticism, but they accept what has been taught to them and pass it along from generation to generation, which makes it very difficult for them to listen to any explanation that must contravene their reputation as leading authorities. That is why they reject people, put anyone down who does not have what they are proud of — their formal education. But please remember that they, too, are moving in the direction of greater satisfaction, and it isn’t fair to criticize them for being proud of their scholastic achievements. I refused to let a Ph.D. in math read my book, not because he gave me the wrong answer to a math problem, but because he said my answer must be wrong since he was a Ph.D., and I was not. You might find this problem of interest since it originated with Sir Isaac Newton. If it takes 3 cows two weeks to eat two acres of grass and all the grass that grows on the two acres in two weeks, and if it takes two cows four weeks to eat two acres of grass and all the grass grown on the two acres in the four weeks, how many cows would be required to eat 6 acres of grass in 6 weeks and all the grass that grows on the 6 acres in the six weeks? Because it was difficult for this Ph.D. to accept the fact that he could not work out this problem, it gave him greater satisfaction to put me and my answer down. Are you beginning to recognize how difficult it has been for me to bring this knowledge to light when it is utterly impossible for our leading authorities to get greater satisfaction listening to any explanation of new knowledge that must reveal their unconscious ignorance that they never knew the truth, only thought they knew? I, however, know the truth and know that I know the truth, and one day, as Gregor Mendel declared when he didn’t bring his discovery to light, “My time will come.” Now let’s continue.
The dictionary states that the word ‘sense’ is defined as any of certain agencies by or through which an individual receives impressions of the external world; popularly, one of the five senses. Any receptor, or group of receptors, specialized to receive and transmit external stimuli as of sight, taste, hearing, etc. But this is a wholly fallacious observation where the eyes are concerned because nothing from the external world, other than light, strikes the optic nerve as stimuli do upon the organs of hearing, taste, touch, and smell.

Upon hearing this, my friend asked me in a rather authoritarian tone of voice, “Are you trying to tell me that this is not a scientific fact?”

I replied, “Are you positive because you were told this, or positive because you yourself saw the relations revealing this truth? And if you are still positive, will you put your right hand on the chopping block to show me how positive you really are?”

“I am not that positive, but we were taught this.”

It is an undeniable fact that light travels at a high rate of speed, but great confusion arises when this is likened to sound, as you will soon have verified. The reason we say man has taste, touch, smell, sight, and hearing is because these describe individual differences that exist, but when we say that these five are senses, we are assuming the eyes function like the other four, which they do not. When you learn what this single misconception has done to the world of knowledge, you won’t believe it at first. So, without further delay, I shall prove something never before understood by man, but before I open this door marked ‘Man Does Not Have Five Senses’ to show you all the knowledge hidden behind it, it is absolutely necessary to prove exactly why the eyes are not a sense organ. Now tell me, did it ever occur to you that many of the apparent truths we have literally accepted come to us in the form of words that do not accurately symbolize what exists, making our problem that much more difficult since this has denied us the ability to see reality for what it is? In fact, it can be demonstrated at the birth of a baby that no object is capable of getting a reaction from the eyes because nothing is impinging on the optic nerve to cause it, although any number of sounds, tastes, touches, or smells can get an immediate reaction since the nerve endings are being struck by something external.

“But doesn’t light cause the pupils to dilate and contract depending on the intensity?”

That is absolutely true, but this does not cause; it is a condition of sight. We simply need light to see, just as other things are a condition of hearing. If there was no light, we could not see, and if there was nothing to carry the sound waves to our ears, we could not hear. The difference is that the sound is being carried to our eardrums, whereas there is no picture traveling from an object on the waves of light to impinge on our optic nerve. Did you ever wonder why the eyes of a newborn baby cannot focus the eyes to see what exists around him, although the other four senses are in full working order?

“I understand from a doctor that the muscles of the eyes have not yet developed sufficiently to allow this focusing.”

“And he believes this because this is what he was taught, but it is not the truth. In fact, if a newborn infant was placed in a soundproof room that would eliminate the possibility of sense experience which is a prerequisite of sight — even though his eyes were wide open —he could never have the desire to see. Furthermore, and quite revealing, if this infant was kept alive for fifty years or longer on a steady flow of intravenous glucose, if possible, without allowing any stimuli to strike the other four organs of sense, this baby, child, young, and middle aged person would never be able to focus the eyes to see any objects existing in that room no matter how much light was present or how colorful they might be because the conditions necessary for sight have been removed, and there is absolutely nothing in the external world that travels from an object and impinges on the optic nerve to cause it.

It's not about what we are taught, but what has been observed and tested. Things like the speed of light and sound, etc, has been measured, tested and confirmed.

That the eyes have light sensitive cells, rods and cones and so on, has been tested and confirmed.
 
You show her medical documentation of afferent sensory nerves in the eye and she just flat out says No. No reason, just No. It is breathtaking.
Because the optic nerve is really a tract, not a nerve, it is surrounded by the three layers of meninges and cerebrospinal fluid. The two optic nerves meet underneath the hypothalamus, just in front of the pituitary stalk, and many of the fibers cross to the opposite side.

It is so cute how peacegirl grabs stuff off the web and tries to repurpose it for her bullshit without understanding what she is saying at all. And she does this stuff without even citing what she is grabbing, or its context. This is what happens when you got nuthin’.
The optic nerve does not have a nerve ending. It's that simple. He was right and you can't stand it.

What do you think the optic nerve does?
It connects the eyes to the brain, but it doesn't work in the same way as the other senses by receiving and transmitting external stimuli.


The optic nerve transmits information from the eyes to the brain. Basically, the eyes detect light which is converted to nerve impulses that convey information from the eyes to the brain for processing.
 
lightning as we know it in nature is an electrical charge that is not a form of matter.
No, lightning is the effect of an electrical discharge on the air it passes through. The bright flash we see is the air plasma created when the potential difference between the cloud and the ground exceeds the voltage needed to ionise the nitrogen and oxygen molecules; It's very much a form of matter. The plasma is far more conductive than unionized air, so it's fairly common for multiple strikes to follow the same (or part of the same) path over the course of a second or two.

Not that any of this is particularly relevant. But it's worth noting for the record that you are badly wrong about this, too. It's the hallmark of a busted epistemology, that users of it are wrong about a lot of different things.
 
The eyes don't have nerve endings like the other senses.
Yes, they do.

https://askabiologist.asu.edu/rods-and-cones
No they don't, not like the other four.
Yes, they do. Just like the other four.

Indeed, you can test the hypothesis that sight is much the same as touch, by simply applying gentle pressure to your closed eyes - the pressure is sensed just like pressure on any part of your body, but your brain interprets it as light, because the nerve impulses are coming from retinal cells.
 
It is imperative to know that this demonstration will be like a game of chess in which every one of your moves will be forced and checkmate inevitable but only if you don’t make up your own rules as to what is true and false which will only delay the very life you want for yourself.
Why is it like this, though? Why is he allowed to make up these arbitrary rules, including the rule that nobody else should make up any rules?

The argument from consequences fallacy fails to convince me that I should abdicate my reason in favour of this person's demand that I obey his rules, and discard my own.

His epistemology is broken, and this paragraph is a paraphrase of the Wizard of Oz saying "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

You cannot expect to persuade someone of the truth of your claims, if you start with a demand that he accepts your own ideosyncratic rules as truly necessary.

If only you believe every word I say, you will find that you don't disbelieve my claims.

Well, duh.
 
Supposing I stood up in one of our universities and said, “Ladies and gentlemen, I am prepared to prove that man does not have five senses, which has nothing to do with a sixth sense,” wouldn’t all the professors laugh and say, “Are you serious or are you being funny? You can’t be serious because everybody knows man has five senses. This is an established fact.”
No, they would not; Because professors of biological science at reputable universities are already aware that the idea that there are five senses is a folk myth thst bears zero relationship to the facts.

If anyone stood up in one of our universities and said, “Ladies and gentlemen, I am prepared to prove that man does not have five senses, which has nothing to do with a sixth sense,” the reaction would be to wonder why this fool was wasting time debunking something already known to be false.

It would be received in much the way as if someone stood up in one of our universities and said, “Ladies and gentlemen, I am prepared to prove that the Earth is not in fact flat at all!”

If you expect that all the professors would laugh and say, “Are you serious or are you being funny? You can’t be serious because everybody knows that the world is flat as a pancake. This is an established fact!”, then you are in for a crushing disappointment.

Before one can challenge scientific orthodoxy, it is necessary to know what the scientific orthodoxy is; And folk traditions are a poor guide to the understanding of the world that actual experts have.

When an argument that is supposed to compel my acceptance at each stage pratfalls at the first clause, I really don't need to waste time on the rest of the chain of broken logic - any more than I need to watch the rest of the Grand National to find out if I am a winner, when the horse I bet on threw its jockey at the first fence.
 
The idea that man has five senses originated with Aristotle, and it has never been challenged.
It has literally been challenged for over three hundred years, and is no longer considered to be true by anyone who has a passing knowledge of biology. Even a century ago, this statement would have been known by any serious student of biology to be flat-out false.
 
PeaceGirl, there are a couple of really relevant topics out there you might be interested in. General Semantics is one, Zen Buddhism is the other.

Your father's work was for a different time. Maybe you could update it.
Do you know opr a fact that he was her father?

She did say she was marketing the book.
 
PeaceGirl, you must have really loved your father. I think that's beautiful. I remember this thread from another message board. Maybe talk rational or Richard Dawkins forum? At the time I read quite a bit of what you offered of his book and iirc you were asking people to buy the book for more. Is that still the case?

Anyway, I have entirely forgotten the contents so I just skimmed the intro and ToC of the book and I have to say that, while the sentiment seems nice and there may even be some valuable insight available in the book, deliverance from evil isn't really something I feel strongly about and anyway evil is in the eye of the beholder.

I remember another person who had a very similar argument using determinism in much the same way. His name was Ontic at Talk Rational, maybe he posts here. If so, you could find something of a kindred spirit there.

Aside from that, in a complexity regime which is what life is, causality is only a coherent concept at very gross levels. Rather emergence and adaptation are the foundations and static equilibrium doesn't happen at all. There is no end state. Or, that's my paradigm and it's very useful to me. Determinism is great in closed systems with few interactions. Outside of that, everything is caused by everything so I can't really go down this road with you. Also, I am already as happy as I want to be and the rest of the world is on their own as far as that goes. They all seem to be a bit crazy to me.

Anyway, thanks for having the link posted.

Peace out
When you get rid of causality you can imagine anything.

Gods. demons, magic spells, and most importantly somethings something form nothing.

Elaborate on what you men by causality being a gross level.
 
Except where it doesn’t, as with quantum indeterminism.

Referring, of course, to Steve’s physical causality remark.
There's no way to prove this. When it says everything being fixed, this is impossible because can't go back in time to the exact moment a choice was made. This is all conjecture, supposition, hypothesis, guesswork, nothing of substance.
So you agree choices are not fixed by determinism?
Choices are not fixed by determinism where it tells you that you have to do one thing when you want to do another. It does not work like that. It does not tell you in advance what you must choose, if you don't want to choose it. You get to decide, based on your circumstances, which option is the best for you at each moment. But that choice, once made, could not have been otherwise because you can only move in the direction of greater preference or satisfaction, not less. People have the impression that determinism isn't their friend because they think it takes away from their freedom, but that's not what it does because people can still ruminate, ponder, contemplate, and ultimately decide.
 
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