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The Jewish Concept of a Messiah

 
 
 
TomC said:
No Robots said:
Jesus had a far broader view of the nature and function of the Messiah than did or do most other people. For him, it was indeed a world-redemption role. Non-Jews were to be enfolded into the project to realize the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
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Why do you think that?

I see no particular reason to do so.
Tom
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Here's just one: "And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Mt 24:14)
 
No Robots said:
TomC said:
No Robots said:
Jesus had a far broader view of the nature and function of the Messiah than did or do most other people. For him, it was indeed a world-redemption role. Non-Jews were to be enfolded into the project to realize the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Click to expand...
Why do you think that?

I see no particular reason to do so.
Tom
Click to expand...
Here's just one: "And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Mt 24:14)
Click to expand...
Why do you think Matthew knew what he was talking about?
What makes you sure Matthew knew that was being written, and attributed to him?

He'd been dead for centuries when the Roman elite decided to canonize that bit of ancient literature.
Tom
 
TomC said:
No Robots said:
TomC said:
No Robots said:
Jesus had a far broader view of the nature and function of the Messiah than did or do most other people. For him, it was indeed a world-redemption role. Non-Jews were to be enfolded into the project to realize the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Click to expand...
Why do you think that?

I see no particular reason to do so.
Tom
Click to expand...
Here's just one: "And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Mt 24:14)
Click to expand...
Why do you think Matthew knew what he was talking about?
What makes you sure Matthew knew that was being written, and attributed to him?

He'd been dead for centuries when the Roman elite decided to canonize that bit of ancient literature.
Tom
Click to expand...
The Bible is what we have, so the Bible is what I use. I see no reason to abandon it for wild speculation about demigods, outer space crucifixions and pygmies.
 
TomC said:
No Robots said:
Jesus had a far broader view of the nature and function of the Messiah than did or do most other people. For him, it was indeed a world-redemption role. Non-Jews were to be enfolded into the project to realize the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
Click to expand...
Why do you think that?

I see no particular reason to do so.
Tom
Click to expand...
Exactly. What did Jesus say or do to indicate such? The gospel of John though doesn’t count. That is clearly a waaay too different story to be even remotely truthful.
 
How do you know Jesus was not a raving lunatic?

How do you know that alleged words of Jesus were spoken by one person or just fabricated?


I am sure there are books on the topic. People with an otherwise meaningless purposeless life find meaning and purpose by endlessly spinning unconnected sound bites from somebody 2000 years ago. Gets those feel good brain endorphins flowing.

A sense of power and righteousness.

In this case 'I am preaching how the world will be saved and become one based on a 2000 year old dead Jew'. That is basic Evangelical Christianity and is nothing g new or revolutionary.


They think they are 'Moses down from the mountain'.

That there were multiple claimants to the messiah in the time was covered in a long ago comparative region class.

Jesus walking around spouting catch phrases is what Jewish prophets did.

My grandmother on my father's side who was a devout Cathodic once told me 'People want heaven on Earth and they are not going to get it'.

Any literate Jew in Israel would know the end was coming, meaning deconstruction by Rome.


The Essenes were an apocalyptic sect, meaning they believed that the end of the current evil age was approaching and that the Lord would establish a new kingdom for Judaism. They believed in immortality and divine punishment for sin, but denied the resurrection of the body.
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Essenes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The War Scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls describes Armageddon as a three-stage war between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness. The scroll provides insight into how some Jews around the time of Jesus conceived of the end of the world.
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beyondthesestonewalls.com

Qumran: The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Coming Apocalypse — Beyond These Stone Walls

The community of believers that left behind the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran awaited an apocalyptic battle between the Children of Light and the Children of Darkness.
beyondthesestonewalls.com beyondthesestonewalls.com

The community of believers that left behind the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran awaited an apocalyptic battle between the Children of Light and the Children of Darkness.
Click to expand...

Jews in the 1st century were complex. They were not monolithic and reducible to a pure Judaism as NR thinks. There were disputes over who were the authentic descendants of the original tribes.
 
No Robots said:
The Bible is what we have, so the Bible is what I use.
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The Bible isn't all we have. There's lots of ancient literature describing impossible things and adding moral and ethical messages. Why is the Bible more important to you than all the others?
No Robots said:
I see no reason to abandon it for wild speculation about demigods,
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That's not speculation, at least not on my part. It's straight out of the New Testament.
A demigod is the term for someone who was fathered by a god and a human mother. Greco Roman tradition includes lots of those.
To me, it's solid evidence that Christianity is an essentially pagan belief system that Jesus and the Apostles would have been horrified by, if they had known about it.
No Robots said:
outer space crucifixions and pygmies.
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Never heard of those.

Tom
 
TomC said:
No Robots said:
The Bible is what we have, so the Bible is what I use.
Click to expand...
The Bible isn't all we have. There's lots of ancient literature describing impossible things and adding moral and ethical messages. Why is the Bible more important to you than all the others?
Click to expand...

The Bible is the document under discussion here.

No Robots said:
I see no reason to abandon it for wild speculation about demigods,
Click to expand...
That's not speculation, at least not on my part. It's straight out of the New Testament.
A demigod is the term for someone who was fathered by a god and a human mother. Greco Roman tradition includes lots of those.
To me, it's solid evidence that Christianity is an essentially pagan belief system that Jesus and the Apostles would have been horrified by, if they had known about it.
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I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you"--Psalm 82:6
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No Robots said:
outer space crucifixions and pygmies.
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Never heard of those.
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Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ / Richard Carrier

The Pygmies believed in a Father-God who was murdered, and a Virgin Mother, who gave birth to a Saviour-God Son, who in turn avenged the death of his father. These later on became the Osiris, Isis and Horus of Egypt. The Pygmy Christ was born of a virgin, died for the salvation of his people, arose from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven. Certainly this looks Christianity before Christ.--Acharya S
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No Robots said:
The Bible is the document under discussion here.
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No, the Bible is merely tangential to a much larger historical and cultural discussion, namely the Jewish cultural concept of "Messiah" over time. The Bible might both inform and reveal some limited and momentary snapshot of that idea of Messiah, but it will only be a tiny facet, in the same way as a book about New York culture by a single author cannot possibly capture all (or any) of the complexity of Manhattan.

The Bible is a, not the, document under discussion and this discussion isn't about Jesus.

But what you HAVE done very effectively is made the discussion about yourself.
 
Jarhyn said:
No Robots said:
The Bible is the document under discussion here.
Click to expand...
No, the Bible is merely tangential to a much larger historical and cultural discussion, namely the Jewish cultural concept of "Messiah" over time. The Bible might both inform and reveal some limited and momentary snapshot of that idea of Messiah, but it will only be a tiny facet, in the same way as a book about New York culture by a single author cannot possibly capture all (or any) of the complexity of Manhattan.

The Bible is a, not the, document under discussion and this discussion isn't about Jesus.

But what you HAVE done very effectively is made the discussion about yourself.
Click to expand...
Please do try to follow the line of discussion. In the post to which you object I merely state that I take the Bible as it is, and ignore the radical skepticism of the heathen critics.

With regard to your point in general, what I object to is the insertion of pagan literature into a discussion about the purely Jewish concept of the Messiah. Please feel free to introduce any relevant Jewish literature into this discussion.
 
The OT is not the main source of theology and law, the Talmud is all the side testings that have beloved. Jei9wsh transition is not static.

To go by one one or two isolated passages in the OT an a few words alleged to Jesus abut being the messiah is a very narrow view and is mostly wild ass speculation. But that is what Christians do, make Jesus into whatever they want him to be.

Understanding what the messiah meant at different times to Jews would take some time and study. You would probably have to pick up Hebrew.



en.wikipedia.org

Talmud - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org


The Talmud (/ˈtɑːlmʊd, -məd, ˈtæl-/; Hebrew: תַּלְמוּד‎, romanized: Talmūḏ, lit. 'teaching') is, after the Hebrew Bible, the central text of Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law (halakha) and Jewish theology.[1][2] Until the advent of modernity, in nearly all Jewish communities, the Talmud was the centerpiece of Jewish cultural life and was foundational to "all Jewish thought and aspirations", serving also as "the guide for the daily life" of Jews.[3]

Above all, the Talmud is a commentary on the Mishnah, primarily written in Jewish Babylonian Aramaic. It contains the teachings and opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including halakha, Jewish ethics, philosophy, customs, history, and folklore, and many other topics.

The term Talmud normally refers to the collection of writings named specifically the Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli), compiled in the 5th century by Rav Ashi and Ravina II. There is also an earlier collection known as the Jerusalem Talmud (Talmud Yerushalmi).[4] It may also traditionally be called Shas (ש״ס), a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, or the "six orders" of the Mishnah.

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (משנה, c. 200 CE), a written compendium of the Oral Torah; and the Gemara (גמרא, c. 500 CE), a commentary of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings whose greater goal is to systematically understand the Hebrew Bible. Sometimes, the term "Talmud" is only used for the Gemara. As a whole, the traditions of the Talmud emerged in a literary tradition that occurred between the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the Arab conquest in the early seventh century.[5] In all, the Talmud is divided into 63 tractates, with each tractate systematically discussing one general subject or theme. In the standard print of the Talmud (the Vilna Shas), the Talmud runs to a length of 2,711 double-sided folios.[6]
Click to expand...


There is always a cont6ext to how words are used and what they refereed to in the OT.

en.wikipedia.org

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

he Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, romanized: māšīaḥ) is a savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology who is believed to be the future redeemer of the Jews. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism,[1][2] and in the Hebrew Bible a messiah is a king or High Priest of Israel traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.[3]

However, messiahs were not exclusively Jewish, as the Hebrew Bible refers to Cyrus the Great, an Achaemenid emperor, as a messiah[4][5][6][7] for his decree to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.

In Jewish eschatology, the Messiah is a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who is expected to be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age and world to come.[1][2][8] The Messiah is often referred to as "King Messiah" (Hebrew: מלך משיח, romanized: melekh mashiach, Jewish Babylonian Aramaic: מַלכָא (הוּא) מְשִיחָא, romanized: malkā (hu) mšiḥā[9]).[10]

Jewish messianism gave birth to Christianity, which started as a Second Temple period messianic Jewish religious movement.[11][12]
Click to expand...

Second Temple Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The Second Temple period of Judaism saw the development of several messianic ideas:

Apocalyptic expectations
Many Jewish groups believed that the world was about to end and that the Messiah would come at the end of time.

Royal messiah
The most common expectation was that the Messiah would be a king or ruler in the line of David, born in Bethlehem.
The Psalms of Solomon
This intertestamental book depicts a Davidic messiah who would conquer Jerusalem and rule in peace.
The Qumran community
This community also expected a royal messiah.

The Second Temple period was a time of significant religious change and the development of many religious currents. Other religious developments during this period include:

The formation of the sects of the Pharisees and Sadducees

The development of the authority of scripture
The centrality of law and morality in religion
The origins of the synagogue

The Second Temple period lasted from the construction of the Second Temple in 515 BCE until its destruction by the Romans in 70 CE.

Second Temple Judaism - Wikipedia
Following the establishment of the Hasmonean dynasty, traditional Judaism was reasserted by the Maccabees across the Land of Israe...
Wikipedia

Second Temple period - Wikipedia
Religion * During the 600 years of the Second Temple period, multiple religious currents emerged and extensive religious developm...
Wikipedia
Jesus the (Second Temple-era) Jew - The Christian Century
Jun 5, 2019 — Judaism of the Second Temple period was characterized by fragmentation: it consisted of many groups that held different...
The Christian Century
Click to expand...


I am sure this just scratches the surface. If all else fails No Robots you might want to actuality talk to Jews and rabbis. Over the yeas I found Jews I knew to friendly and very open to talking aqbo0utut their beliefs.


I was going to vist a nerby reormed synagogue but then the Gaza war staeed. Not a good time.

en.wikipedia.org

Reform Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Reform Judaism, also known as Liberal Judaism or Progressive Judaism, is a major Jewish denomination that emphasizes the evolving nature of Judaism, the superiority of its ethical aspects to its ceremonial ones, and belief in a continuous revelation which is closely intertwined with human reason and not limited to the Theophany at Mount Sinai. A highly liberal strand of Judaism, it is characterized by little stress on ritual and personal observance, regarding Jewish law as non-binding and the individual Jew as autonomous, and by a great openness to external influences and progressive values
Click to expand...

reformjudaism.org

Do Reform Jews Believe in the Messiah?

In the Jewish prayer book, the siddur
reformjudaism.org reformjudaism.org
Personal Messiah
Reform Jews don't believe in a single person as the Messiah. Instead, they believe that ordinary people can create a peaceful world through good actions.
Click to expand...



In Jewish lore there was never one messiah. There is and never was a single 'pure Judaism'.
 
steve_bank said:
The OT is not the main source of theology and law, the Talmud is all the side testings that have beloved. Jei9wsh transition is not static.

To go by one one or two isolated passages in the OT an a few words alleged to Jesus abut being the messiah is a very narrow view and is mostly wild ass speculation. But that is what Christians do, make Jesus into whatever they want him to be.

Understanding what the messiah meant at different times to Jews would take some time and study. You would probably have to pick up Hebrew.



en.wikipedia.org

Talmud - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org


The Talmud (/ˈtɑːlmʊd, -məd, ˈtæl-/; Hebrew: תַּלְמוּד‎, romanized: Talmūḏ, lit. 'teaching') is, after the Hebrew Bible, the central text of Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law (halakha) and Jewish theology.[1][2] Until the advent of modernity, in nearly all Jewish communities, the Talmud was the centerpiece of Jewish cultural life and was foundational to "all Jewish thought and aspirations", serving also as "the guide for the daily life" of Jews.[3]

Above all, the Talmud is a commentary on the Mishnah, primarily written in Jewish Babylonian Aramaic. It contains the teachings and opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including halakha, Jewish ethics, philosophy, customs, history, and folklore, and many other topics.

The term Talmud normally refers to the collection of writings named specifically the Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli), compiled in the 5th century by Rav Ashi and Ravina II. There is also an earlier collection known as the Jerusalem Talmud (Talmud Yerushalmi).[4] It may also traditionally be called Shas (ש״ס), a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, or the "six orders" of the Mishnah.

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (משנה, c. 200 CE), a written compendium of the Oral Torah; and the Gemara (גמרא, c. 500 CE), a commentary of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings whose greater goal is to systematically understand the Hebrew Bible. Sometimes, the term "Talmud" is only used for the Gemara. As a whole, the traditions of the Talmud emerged in a literary tradition that occurred between the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the Arab conquest in the early seventh century.[5] In all, the Talmud is divided into 63 tractates, with each tractate systematically discussing one general subject or theme. In the standard print of the Talmud (the Vilna Shas), the Talmud runs to a length of 2,711 double-sided folios.[6]
Click to expand...


There is always a cont6ext to how words are used and what they refereed to in the OT.

en.wikipedia.org

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

he Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, romanized: māšīaḥ) is a savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology who is believed to be the future redeemer of the Jews. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism,[1][2] and in the Hebrew Bible a messiah is a king or High Priest of Israel traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil.[3]

However, messiahs were not exclusively Jewish, as the Hebrew Bible refers to Cyrus the Great, an Achaemenid emperor, as a messiah[4][5][6][7] for his decree to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple.

In Jewish eschatology, the Messiah is a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who is expected to be anointed with holy anointing oil and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age and world to come.[1][2][8] The Messiah is often referred to as "King Messiah" (Hebrew: מלך משיח, romanized: melekh mashiach, Jewish Babylonian Aramaic: מַלכָא (הוּא) מְשִיחָא, romanized: malkā (hu) mšiḥā[9]).[10]

Jewish messianism gave birth to Christianity, which started as a Second Temple period messianic Jewish religious movement.[11][12]
Click to expand...

Second Temple Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The Second Temple period of Judaism saw the development of several messianic ideas:

Apocalyptic expectations
Many Jewish groups believed that the world was about to end and that the Messiah would come at the end of time.

Royal messiah
The most common expectation was that the Messiah would be a king or ruler in the line of David, born in Bethlehem.
The Psalms of Solomon
This intertestamental book depicts a Davidic messiah who would conquer Jerusalem and rule in peace.
The Qumran community
This community also expected a royal messiah.

The Second Temple period was a time of significant religious change and the development of many religious currents. Other religious developments during this period include:

The formation of the sects of the Pharisees and Sadducees

The development of the authority of scripture
The centrality of law and morality in religion
The origins of the synagogue

The Second Temple period lasted from the construction of the Second Temple in 515 BCE until its destruction by the Romans in 70 CE.

Second Temple Judaism - Wikipedia
Following the establishment of the Hasmonean dynasty, traditional Judaism was reasserted by the Maccabees across the Land of Israe...
Wikipedia

Second Temple period - Wikipedia
Religion * During the 600 years of the Second Temple period, multiple religious currents emerged and extensive religious developm...
Wikipedia
Jesus the (Second Temple-era) Jew - The Christian Century
Jun 5, 2019 — Judaism of the Second Temple period was characterized by fragmentation: it consisted of many groups that held different...
The Christian Century
Click to expand...


I am sure this just scratches the surface. If all else fails No Robots you might want to actuality talk to Jews and rabbis. Over the yeas I found Jews I knew to friendly and very open to talking aqbo0utut their beliefs.


I was going to vist a nerby reormed synagogue but then the Gaza war staeed. Not a good time.

en.wikipedia.org

Reform Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Reform Judaism, also known as Liberal Judaism or Progressive Judaism, is a major Jewish denomination that emphasizes the evolving nature of Judaism, the superiority of its ethical aspects to its ceremonial ones, and belief in a continuous revelation which is closely intertwined with human reason and not limited to the Theophany at Mount Sinai. A highly liberal strand of Judaism, it is characterized by little stress on ritual and personal observance, regarding Jewish law as non-binding and the individual Jew as autonomous, and by a great openness to external influences and progressive values
Click to expand...

reformjudaism.org

Do Reform Jews Believe in the Messiah?

In the Jewish prayer book, the siddur
reformjudaism.org reformjudaism.org
Personal Messiah
Reform Jews don't believe in a single person as the Messiah. Instead, they believe that ordinary people can create a peaceful world through good actions.
Click to expand...



In Jewish lore there was never one messiah. There is and never was a single 'pure Judaism'.
Click to expand...
This is good work. I hope that many will follow this path.
 
Well NR, praising me does not change the fact you are ignorant of Judaism.

You insist that the world is becoming Jewish without articulating exactly what you mean by Jewish.

What I posted was there never was any singular pure 'Jewish', and that includes messiah.

oiu said that the word is becoming Jewish is evidenced by people reading Jewish literature, IOW the bible. The NT is not Jewish. Jews were always evolving with copious side commentary, theology, and philosophy. Just as Christianity has done.

You are doing what Christians do. You take the gospel messiah as The Jewish Messiah and quote the OT to support it.
 
^Jews are taking Jesus back, reclaiming him as one of their Messiahs, a tzadik, a pathway to the first and ultimate messiah, Moses. Christians can follow along or stew in their own juices.
 
Likewise, Jews are reclaiming the New Testament as a text belonging rightfully to their own literary heritage. The goyim are left with nothing but their pagan fantasies.
 
I have gone deeper into this than I am really interested in.

It is a rehash of the typical Christian debates and arguments.

Jesus says....
Jesus meant....
 
Yea. Moses. I heard something about him.

Those laws like death penalty for homosexuality. A great compassionate human being. Ahead of his time.

Yea, we should go back to old Judaism, like the 613 commandments pulled out of the OT. Some pretty bizarre.

613 commandments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
^You are welcome to your views on Moses and the Jewish law. As you have repeatedly made clear, you are aware that Jews have a variety of opinions on all matters.
 
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