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The Jewish Concept of a Messiah
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Jarhyn
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NR, we all know perfectly well about your religious predelictions. I very much dislike the preaching of messianic religion on a site for infidels.
From what I gathered of the OP, the point was not toake.stupid claims about who is or isn't a Messiah. I would assert yet again that Jesus has no place in this thread.
I would probably enjoy learning about the history of the Tzadik, documentation, timelines, general beliefs structures as they appeared in which eras, and perhaps claims made at different times made by different scholars according to earlier interpretations...
But all this Jesus talk tells me is that anything I hear from you will be twisted to confirm your own biases.
The whole reason I came here to post was because I'm dissatisfied with the fact that it's not actually discussing much of the history because you, NR, burst in and started preaching. Again.
Can someone for the love of fuck respond to this that isn't NR about... Something? Actual historic religion and religious history rather than shit that's been twisted to a "modern" interpretation?
From what I gathered of the OP, the point was not toake.stupid claims about who is or isn't a Messiah. I would assert yet again that Jesus has no place in this thread.
I would probably enjoy learning about the history of the Tzadik, documentation, timelines, general beliefs structures as they appeared in which eras, and perhaps claims made at different times made by different scholars according to earlier interpretations...
But all this Jesus talk tells me is that anything I hear from you will be twisted to confirm your own biases.
The whole reason I came here to post was because I'm dissatisfied with the fact that it's not actually discussing much of the history because you, NR, burst in and started preaching. Again.
Can someone for the love of fuck respond to this that isn't NR about... Something? Actual historic religion and religious history rather than shit that's been twisted to a "modern" interpretation?
DBT
Contributor
The suffering servant in Isaiah refers to Gods chosen people, not Jesus. Check the context.
DBT
Contributor
Jesus does not qualify regardless. What was expected of the promised Messiah was not met by Jesus....which is why orthodox Judaism rejects Jesus as their promised one.
TomC
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What makes you think you understand Jews better than I do?
Tom
Jarhyn
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Hey Tom, I expect you might actually understand quite a bit better than he does. Do you know any of the history of whatever the fuck NR is preaching about?
Like, this thread barely survived at all before it became a drag-out over whether Jesus is the "Messiah", and IDGAF about that. I want to know beliefs about what constitutes a Messiah, not beliefs about people who may or may not satisfy those beliefs, since those people tell me nothing about the belief itself.
DBT
Contributor
Being 'embraced as an important figure in the history of Judaism' is not the the same as believing that Jesus was the promised messiah or that he was the son of God or incarnation of God, Trinity theology, etc....
Yeah, there's is a lot wrong with Christian theology. However, it is all basically a distortion of rational Judaic thought. Jesus as Messiah, Son of God, Incarnation of God, trinity: all of these have a basis in Jewish thought. The heathen have distorted them almost beyond recognition, but Jewish scholars have laboured long and hard to provide a proper understanding that allows Christians to mature into Jews.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
As I understand it it some Jews see Jesus as one of many Jewish prophets.
Mohamed said Jesus was a prophet in the line of Abraham and that he himself was the last prohibit in the line. of Abraham. He refereed to Jews as the people of the book who had lost their way.
As always, given the scant words alleged by Jesus and n o knowledge who he may have been, people are free to interpret Jesus of the gospels as they please.
Constantine had to deal with violence among Christians on acentral issue, the divinity of Jesus.
Constantine convened the Council Of Nicene to work it out. The result was Nicene Creed, a loyalty oath to the new theology. This is what was passed down as Jesus through today. It has no connection to who an HJ may have been.
en.wikipedia.org
www.britannica.com
So NR, your version of Jesus that includes Marx is no better or worse than all the rest. Each version has its followers.
There is the liberal Jesus who loves everybody. There is the conservative vengeful Jesus who hates gays. There are the se secular Christians.
Mohamed said Jesus was a prophet in the line of Abraham and that he himself was the last prohibit in the line. of Abraham. He refereed to Jews as the people of the book who had lost their way.
As always, given the scant words alleged by Jesus and n o knowledge who he may have been, people are free to interpret Jesus of the gospels as they please.
Constantine had to deal with violence among Christians on acentral issue, the divinity of Jesus.
Constantine convened the Council Of Nicene to work it out. The result was Nicene Creed, a loyalty oath to the new theology. This is what was passed down as Jesus through today. It has no connection to who an HJ may have been.
Nicene Creed - Wikipedia
Nicene Creed | History & Text | Britannica
Nicene Creed, ecumenical Christian statement of faith. It is the only ecumenical creed because it is accepted as authoritative by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and major Protestant churches. Learn more about the history and importance of the Nicene Creed.
www.britannica.com
So NR, your version of Jesus that includes Marx is no better or worse than all the rest. Each version has its followers.
There is the liberal Jesus who loves everybody. There is the conservative vengeful Jesus who hates gays. There are the se secular Christians.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
No every Jew. Some were okay with Rome, as evidenced by Paul and the gospels and early christian symbolism which rarely was a cross but instead an anchor and fish, something quite Roman.
And in the first century there was no distinction between Jew and Christian. Don't knw if the word christian was even around outside of chrestian. And there were lots of different Jewish christians and christian jews in succeeding centuries, as you say.
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steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
My point to NR and his ideology is Jews were never a monolithic 'pure' culture.
The OT is a disjointed collection of wrings written by different people at different times.
The OT is a disjointed collection of wrings written by different people at different times.
SLD
Contributor
even if it is referring to Jesus’s crucifixion, which I certainly don’t believe, it says nothing whatsoever about the resurrection. The mere phrase “he was pierced for our transgressions” is only one part of the Jesus story, which also includes various miracles, his resurrection and ascension to heaven, and ultimately his return thousands of years later. Where is that prophesied in the OT?
Christians like to point to the story of Jonah and the Whale (or fish, whatever). But that’s clearly not a prophecy. It’s just a story about running away from god. Also Jonah was in the whale for 3 full days including nights. Jesus was not so he failed that “prophecy” as well. And Jonah survived, he wasn’t resurrected.
I see absolutely nothing in the Old Testament that refers to a bodily resurrection of any kind of messiah.
It is so odd how Christian have to really stretch their interpretation of the OT to include prophecies that aren’t really there and are just so vague as to be useless.
Furthermore it’s so arrogant of Christians to basically tell Jews that they don’t understand their own scripture.
^
Isaiah is not referring to a particular person. He is elaborating a general principle, the tzadik, the righteous man. Jesus was the tzadik.
Reincarnation is a controversial subject in Judaism. There is a somewhat disparaging article about it in the Jewish Encyclopedia. For more affirmative views, look to the Kabbalists.
I recommend consulting only Jewish sources for both the old and new Testaments.
Isaiah is not referring to a particular person. He is elaborating a general principle, the tzadik, the righteous man. Jesus was the tzadik.
Reincarnation is a controversial subject in Judaism. There is a somewhat disparaging article about it in the Jewish Encyclopedia. For more affirmative views, look to the Kabbalists.
I recommend consulting only Jewish sources for both the old and new Testaments.
SLD
Contributor
So it’s not a prophecy then?
Prophecy is a far more complex phenomenon than is generally known. I recommend, again, consulting Jewish sources on the nature of prophecy. It is indeed concerned with the future, but only in the context of the unfolding of God's eternal and infinite plan to raise the whole of mankind to the level of the tzadik. This process is actualized through exceptional individuals around whom a movement crystallizes.
SLD
Contributor
Seriously, what the fuck are you saying? We are all potentially a messiah? What is this unfolding eternal and infinite plan? What the fuck does that even mean? How does this relate to Jesus? Was he an exceptional man? If so, did he even exist?
Maybe he did. Maybe he had good leadership qualities. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t dumb as a rock. History is full of examples of leaders who were dumb as a rock. Look at Trump. Doesn’t mean shit. Maccoby makes this point about Jesus too, Pointing out that he probably expected god to perform a miracle and throw the Romans out because he had enough faith. His pathetic cry on the cross, why have you foresaken me, was a realization that god basically was a myth. Too late, dumbfuck!
God didn’t save him and elevate him to the kingship because god is a myth.
This is the worst impulse of religions in a nutshell. It's a wish to impose an image onto reality, saying in effect "The world should be radically other than it is".
A smarter (more earthy, more realistic) spirituality would involve self-overcoming instead of an alternative reality. The project then would be to make wishing conform with how reality is, instead of trying to make reality conform with wishing. This escape-into-fantasy wishing results in unhappiness, and socially/ecologically results in oppression of people and destruction of earth's life.
You're an earth animal. And what the hell is wrong with that? What's the need for esoteric weirdness? You can't "save" the world, it doesn't need saving. You do, from your fantasy world.