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Do Gods Exist?

 
 
 
I, for one, tremble when there is thunder, because obviously it's gods battling in the heavens, and totally not a natural phenomenon.
 
Ford said:
I, for one, tremble when there is thunder, because obviously it's gods battling in the heavens, and totally not a natural phenomenon.
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That's very clever. So, you think God does exist, but mistake thunder for unnatural phenomenon. That might explain much of the atheist theology I've seen.
 
Gods exist as fiction. Does Gandalf the Grey exist? Yes. Most people in the English speaking world know who he is; Many can describe him and his actions in excruciating detail.

But is he real? No. He was invented as a part of a story.

Gandalf would not become any more real if the identity of J R R Tolkein were lost to history.

The confusion, with gods, is that lots of people think that they exist as non-fiction. This is confusing, because there is literally no evidence for any non-fictional gods, and literally everything that is not fictional has evidence.

The confusion is simply resolved by the observation that people are much better at storytelling than they are at thinking.
 
bilby said:
Gods exist as fiction. Does Gandalf the Grey exist? Yes. Most people in the English speaking world know who he is; Many can describe him and his actions in excruciating detail.

But is he real? No. He was invented as a part of a story.

Gandalf would not become any more real if the identity of J R R Tolkein were lost to history.
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I agree with all of this.

bilby said:
The confusion, with gods, is that lots of people think that they exist as non-fiction. This is confusing, because there is literally no evidence for any non-fictional gods, and literally everything that is not fictional has evidence.
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This is factually wrong. I've named several non-fiction gods that exist. If I can name just one, then that debunks your conclusion.

Kim Jong Un. He is a god. He exists.

bilby said:
The confusion is simply resolved by the observation that people are much better at storytelling than they are at thinking.
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That doesn't matter. Kim Jong Un is a god and he exists.
 
pood said:
RIS said:

That doesn't matter. Kim Jong Un is a god and he exists.
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:rofl:

Whatever, dude. Are we all done here with this nonsense?
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Oxford Dictionary definition of God:
1. In Christianity and other monotheistic religions, the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. In certain other religions, a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity; an image, idol, animal, or other object worshiped as divine or symbolizing a god; used as a conventional personification of fate.
3. An adored, admired, or influential person; a thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god.
4. Informal: the gallery in a theater.
 
RIS said:
Ford said:
I, for one, tremble when there is thunder, because obviously it's gods battling in the heavens, and totally not a natural phenomenon.
Click to expand...

That's very clever. So, you think God does exist, but mistake thunder for unnatural phenomenon. That might explain much of the atheist theology I've seen.
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No, it's not really clever at all. It's just garden variety sarcasm. Low effort, I'll admit, but if you're going to come to a forum like this and definitively declare that "gods exist," you have to expect just such a reaction.

So we're clear, I don't actually think that thunder is caused by gods. Nor do I believe that the Sun is a god. Or that there is a god of war. An over-arching supreme being that encompasses all of the other gods? Not so much.
 
(Shakes box.)
-It says 'Proof of God Inside', but this box feels empty. Here, you try it.
(She shakes box.)
-I see what you mean. Should we open it?
-If we open it, it will be hard to take it back for a refund.
-No, I have an honest face. I say open it, and if it's empty, we'll take it back to the store.
-If you say so.
(She pulls up one corner of the box top.)
-It looks empty. (Shakes box over table.) Nothing. (She pulls entire box top open.) It's empty. What a gyp!! Take it back, tell them it was empty.
-Okay, but I sure hope they'll give us a refund. You know, if they're lazy enough to have this junk for sale, I have my doubts that they'll own up and give us our money back.
 
Ford said:
So we're clear, I don't actually think that thunder is caused by gods. Nor do I believe that the Sun is a god.
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Why not?

Ford said:
Or that there is a god of war. An over-arching supreme being that encompasses all of the other gods? Not so much.
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The question was intended to establish if gods exist. It didn't specifically mention any of that, so why bring it up? You surely don't think that just because you have a ridiculous take on gods that means no gods exist, right?
 
ideologyhunter said:
(Shakes box.)
-It says 'Proof of God Inside', but this box feels empty. Here, you try it.
(She shakes box.)
-I see what you mean. Should we open it?
-If we open it, it will be hard to take it back for a refund.
-No, I have an honest face. I say open it, and if it's empty, we'll take it back to the store.
-If you say so.
(She pulls up one corner of the box top.)
-It looks empty. (Shakes box over table.) Nothing. (She pulls entire box top open.) It's empty. What a gyp!! Take it back, tell them it was empty.
-Okay, but I sure hope they'll give us a refund. You know, if they're lazy enough to have this junk for sale, I have my doubts that they'll own up and give us our money back.
Click to expand...

What the hell does this have to do - with anything?
 
RIS said:
Ford said:
So we're clear, I don't actually think that thunder is caused by gods. Nor do I believe that the Sun is a god.
Click to expand...

Why not?

Ford said:
Or that there is a god of war. An over-arching supreme being that encompasses all of the other gods? Not so much.
Click to expand...

The question was intended to establish if gods exist. It didn't specifically mention any of that, so why bring it up? You surely don't think that just because you have a ridiculous take on gods that means no gods exist, right?
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Serious question: Are you trolling us?

As far as your first questions go, it is pretty clear that thunder is not in fact caused by gods, the Sun is a star at the center of our solar system composed of mostly hydrogen and helium, and not a being named "Ra" (or whatever) that travels in a chariot across the sky every day and needs to be placated with sacrifices to keep doing his job.

As to your second point, I put it to you that the notion of a god of war (or thunder, or the Sun, or the Moon, or love, or any of the other things attributed to gods in the past) is itself a "ridiculous take." If you go back far enough in human history, many people thought that each of their cities (think Ur, Uruk, Babylon, etc) had their own gods.

Is there a god of Los Angeles? A god of London? If you were able to bring an ancient Assyrian forward in time to the present day and show them New York, they'd assume that the god of New York must be pretty damned powerful. The god of Terra Haute? Not so much.
 
Ford said:
Serious question: Are you trolling us?
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I was beginning to think you were trolling me. Actually.

Ford said:
As far as your first questions go, it is pretty clear that thunder is not in fact caused by gods, the Sun is a star at the center of our solar system composed of mostly hydrogen and helium, and not a being named "Ra" (or whatever) that travels in a chariot across the sky every day and needs to be placated with sacrifices to keep doing his job.

As to your second point, I put it to you that the notion of a god of war (or thunder, or the Sun, or the Moon, or love, or any of the other things attributed to gods in the past) is itself a "ridiculous take." If you go back far enough in human history, many people thought that each of their cities (think Ur, Uruk, Babylon, etc) had their own gods.

Is there a god of Los Angeles? A god of London? If you were able to bring an ancient Assyrian forward in time to the present day and show them New York, they'd assume that the god of New York must be pretty damned powerful. The god of Terra Haute? Not so much.
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Terre Haute.

Could you define the word god? Since you obviously don't accept my definition or the Oxford definition, or any definition I've ever encountered. It seems to me atheists have their own definition. It seems to me that their definition is that there is no definition? Is that correct?

I've talked to many atheists over the years and I can't think of them ever actually having defined what a god is. Could anyone do that here?
 
RIS said:
Ford said:
Serious question: Are you trolling us?
Click to expand...

I was beginning to think you were trolling me. Actually.

Ford said:
As far as your first questions go, it is pretty clear that thunder is not in fact caused by gods, the Sun is a star at the center of our solar system composed of mostly hydrogen and helium, and not a being named "Ra" (or whatever) that travels in a chariot across the sky every day and needs to be placated with sacrifices to keep doing his job.

As to your second point, I put it to you that the notion of a god of war (or thunder, or the Sun, or the Moon, or love, or any of the other things attributed to gods in the past) is itself a "ridiculous take." If you go back far enough in human history, many people thought that each of their cities (think Ur, Uruk, Babylon, etc) had their own gods.

Is there a god of Los Angeles? A god of London? If you were able to bring an ancient Assyrian forward in time to the present day and show them New York, they'd assume that the god of New York must be pretty damned powerful. The god of Terra Haute? Not so much.
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Terre Haute.

Could you define the word god? Since you obviously don't accept my definition or the Oxford definition, or any definition I've ever encountered. It seems to me atheists have their own definition. It seems to me that their definition is that there is no definition? Is that correct?

I've talked to many atheists over the years and I can't think of them ever actually having defined what a god is. Could anyone do that here?
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You are asserting that god(s) exist. As such, it is upon you to not only provide the definition of a "god" (which you have pulled from a dictionary) but also to provide the proof of your assertion. The burden of proof does not lie with us.
 
Ford said:
You are asserting that god(s) exist.
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Correct.

Ford said:
As such, it is upon you to not only provide the definition of a "god" (which you have pulled from a dictionary) but also to provide the proof of your assertion. The burden of proof does not lie with us.
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I'm asking for a definition. I've already proved my claim.

You see? The problem at this stage is that we don't agree with the dictionary definition so I'm asking you to tell me what YOU the reader think a god is. That way we can then establish whether or not we can determine with any certainty that that god exists.

There's no right or wrong answer here.
 
RIS said:
Ford said:
You are asserting that god(s) exist.
Click to expand...

Correct.

Ford said:
As such, it is upon you to not only provide the definition of a "god" (which you have pulled from a dictionary) but also to provide the proof of your assertion. The burden of proof does not lie with us.
Click to expand...

I'm asking for a definition. I've already proved my claim.

You see? The problem at this stage is that we don't agree with the dictionary definition so I'm asking you to tell me what YOU the reader think a god is. That way we can then establish whether or not we can determine with any certainty that that god exists.

There's no right or wrong answer here.
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You haven't proven that god(s) exist. You have asserted that they do.
 
RIS said:
Kim Jong Un is a god and he exists.
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Insofar as Kim Jong Un exists, he is not a god.

Insofar as Kim Jong Un is a god, he does not exist.

The person who exists is an ordinary human being.

The god is a story people tell; In this case, they have attached the story to something real. That happens a lot, with all kinds of stories - like the story of George Washington and the cherry tree. The George Washington in that story never existed. But is based on a real person who did exist.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with gods per se, gods are just a tiny subset of humankind's propensity for story telling.
 
Ford said:
You haven't proven that god(s) exist. You have asserted that they do.
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I've proven it. I think that you only question it because you think I'm saying all gods exist. I'm not saying that. I've repeatedly said that some gods exist, some don't, gods exist in various ways, i.e. fictional, fabricated, literal, etc. The question of does man exist differs from the question do all men exist.

Kim Jong Un exists. He literally exists. He is literally a god by definition. Therefore, gods exist. Superman doesn't exist, aside from being a fictional man. He doesn't literally exist. He isn't a man in a literal, only a fictional sense. Fabricated.

Just because I have proved, without a doubt that Kim Jong Un is a god and exists don't mean that the same can be said of Zeus or Satan etc.

Would you agree and if not, why?
 
RIS said:
pood said:
RIS said:

That doesn't matter. Kim Jong Un is a god and he exists.
Click to expand...
:rofl:

Whatever, dude. Are we all done here with this nonsense?
Click to expand...

Oxford Dictionary definition of God:
1. In Christianity and other monotheistic religions, the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. In certain other religions, a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity; an image, idol, animal, or other object worshiped as divine or symbolizing a god; used as a conventional personification of fate.
3. An adored, admired, or influential person; a thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god.
4. Informal: the gallery in a theater.
Click to expand...
Oh, yes, the great and unassailable "argument by dictionary". :rolleyes:

"Kim Jong Un has never been a gallery in a theatre, therefore you are wrong to say that he is a God", and other such absurdities that result from this beloved form of argument, suggest strongly that it's not the slam-dunk you imagine it to be.

Equivocation is not cleverness.
 
bilby said:
Insofar as Kim Jong Un exists, he is not a god.

Insofar as Kim Jong Un is a god, he does not exist.

The person who exists is an ordinary human being.

The god is a story people tell; In this case, they have attached the story to something real. That happens a lot, with all kinds of stories - like the story of George Washington and the cherry tree. The George Washington in that story never existed. But is based on a real person who did exist.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with gods per se, gods are just a tiny subset of humankind's propensity for story telling.
Click to expand...

So, you don't agree with the Oxford definition. Could you please define what a god is in your estimation?
 
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