The Mamdani Experiment In Socialism

It is an experiment.

AI Overview
New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani's grocery plan establishes five municipal-owned grocery stores, offering 30% discounts on core staples, and utilizing a $70 million capital budget allocation.

Project Scope and FinancialsTotal Stores: 5 city-run locations (one in each of the five boroughs).

Capital Budget: $70 million allocated for building and setup costs.

Subsidies: The city covers major occupancy costs including rent and property taxes.

Pricing and Product ModelCore Discount: 30% below typical retail market prices on essential goods.

Included Items: Fresh produce, meat, seafood, dairy products like milk and cheese, bread, and roughly 20 other vital staples.

Price Stability: Prices for core items are locked and recalculated on a monthly basis.

Excluded Items: Hot prepared foods, tobacco, and alcohol will not be sold.

Locations and TimelineThe Bronx: First store located at The Peninsula in Hunts Point, projected to open in late 2027 ($10 million build cost).Manhattan: Second location planned at La Marqueta in East Harlem (9,000 sq ft), expected by 2029.Other Boroughs: Locations for Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island are currently being evaluated.

Operations and Management Private Operators: Day-to-day work—such as staffing, sourcing, and merchandising—managed by contracted private grocers.

Labor Standards: Operators must supply high-paying jobs with full benefit packages.If you'd like,

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Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just provide cash subsidies for ‘essentials’ ?

Mandating high paying jobs?

The problem with government run or subsidized business is there is no incentive for efficiency. Cold War era communist economies. Bloated inefficient burdensome business that never produced.

Mamdani is going down a well trodden path.

The Thatcher era government business divestiture, known as privatization, transferred more than 40 major state-owned enterprises to the private sector, including British Telecom, British Gas, and British Airways. This massive policy shift raised over £50 billion for the UK Exchequer and dropped public sector employment in nationalized industries significantly.

AI Overview

Europe's divestiture of state-owned businesses involves selling government-held commercial assets into private hands, driven heavily by EU fiscal rules, debt reduction goals, and market liberalizations. Key historical and ongoing phases include post-communist mass privatizations, debt-prompted sell-offs in eurozone countries, and partial retentions in strategic sectors.Major Drivers and Legal FrameworkFiscal Pressures: Sovereign debt crises have frequently forced nations like Greece to sell state assets to meet deficit targets tied to bailout packages.EU Mandates: While EU rules push public services to operate under private commercial law, the Union does not legally mandate outright sales to private owners, leaving many energy and telecom firms partially state-owned.Historical Waves and SectorsPost-Communist Transformation: East Germany and Central/Eastern Europe conducted massive structural sell-offs of industrial and commercial firms starting in the 1990s.Western European Utilities: Countries like France and Italy progressively divested from competitive industrial markets (such as automotive and banking) before partially floating major utility and telecom providers.

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steve_bank said:

Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just provide cash subsidies for ‘essentials’ ?

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No.

The main problem Mamdani is trying to address is food deserts. There are no grocery stores at all in the areas he's targeting because the free market can't make money (or enough money) by opening stores there. Providing cash subsidies to consumers wouldn't change that.

If you want experiments like this to stop happening, maybe the right should actually address the affordability issue. Otherwise, keep crying about it.

GenesisNemesis said:

If you want experiments like this to stop happening, maybe the right should actually address the affordability issue. Otherwise, keep crying about it.

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I'm not holding my breath for this. Lets see if the voters make them pay in November.

GenesisNemesis said:

If you want experiments like this to stop happening, maybe the right should actually address the affordability issue. Otherwise, keep crying about it.

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I don't know why Twizzle is rolling his eyes at your post. The republican war on Iran and Tariffs have a direct impact on inflation. What republican has said a damn word about the tariffs?

We are already discussing Mamdani Marts in the other thread, so I am not sure what the value of this one is.

jonatha said:

The main problem Mamdani is trying to address is food deserts.

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Is there even a significant issue with food deserts in NYC given its excellent public transit system and prevalence of guys on fixies that can bring you anything?
And besides, five stores, one per borough, is not going to improve access for millions of people in any significant way.

There are no grocery stores at all in the areas he's targeting because the free market can't make money (or enough money) by opening stores there.

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If there is a structural barrier to a grocery store being opened in a neighborhood, then that structural issue should be studied and alleviated if possible. A government store will not fix this - it will just make the government store a money pit even it was selling at market prices and not trying to offer these deep discounts Mamdani is advertising.

Providing cash subsidies to consumers wouldn't change that.

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If the issue was really access and not price, why lead with the ridiculous 30% discount over private grocery stores?
How about a system where the city hires bike riders to deliver groceries to low income people, or at least low-income people who are elderly or with disabilities, for free from local grocery stores? This system would cover a lot more ground than five individual stores, would be targeted to those who need it rather than scattershot (and aid those who show up first and buy out the store), and it would likely cost orders of magnitude less.

GenesisNemesis said:

If you want experiments like this to stop happening, maybe the right should actually address the affordability issue. Otherwise, keep crying about it.

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Affordability in NYC is somewhat of an intractable issue. Yes, people feel that the "rent is too damn high", but that is just a consequence of having a lot of people who want to live in NYC and limited real estate in the city, especially in Manhattan.
There are really no good solutions to the conundrum.
Build more housing?
Works up to a point, but too dense housing makes it less desirable. Areas like Manhattan are already very dense. More high rises make traffic worse and its challenging to provide all the services. Getting rid of greenspace, which was also one of Mamdani's plans, also makes the neighborhoods less attractive.
Freezing the rents has its own problems.
Landlords need those rents to fund maintenance of the housing units, and yes, also to make a reasonable profit. Freezing the rent while maintenance costs rise is not sustainable. And there is another problem. If the rent is below market price, that means that demand > supply. If the rent is significantly below market price, demand >> supply. So if the price cannot be used to select who gets the apartments (by renters outbidding each other) how should it be decides who gets these rent controlled apartments? Party loyalty? Personal connections to Mamdani and his inner circle? Just dumb luck like when Monica took over her grandmother's rent-controlled apartment in Friends? How is any of these options remotely fair?

The fact is that in the 80s NYC was less desirable because of high crime. At the same time, the US population was far smaller, which means that today there is a bigger total number of Americans, and a greater percentage of them who might decide to want to move to NYC. That increases demand, while supply cannot keep up. The result is that the prices rise to equilibrate.

Derec said:

If the rent is below market price, that means that demand > supply. If the rent is significantly below market price, demand >> supply. So if the price cannot be used to select who gets the apartments (by renters outbidding each other) how should it be decides who gets these rent controlled apartments? Party loyalty? Personal connections to Mamdani and his inner circle? Just dumb luck like when Monica took over her grandmother's rent-controlled apartment in Friends? How is any of these options remotely fair?

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How is making the selection based on wealth any more "remotely fair"?

A lottery would be much fairer than just letting the highest bidders run roughshod over anyone with the bad manners to be poor.

Derec said:

The fact is that in the 80s NYC was less desirable because of high crime. At the same time, the US population was far smaller, which means that today there is a bigger total number of Americans, and a greater percentage of them who might decide to want to move to NYC. That increases demand, while supply cannot keep up. The result is that the prices rise to equilibrate.

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"This is what does happen, therefore this is what should happen" is a very dubious basis for morality.

Money is not a force of nature. We can't legislate an alternative to gravity, but we can at any time legislate pretty much any change to mere economics.

Derec said:

We are already discussing Mamdani Marts in the other thread, so I am not sure what the value of this one is.

jonatha said:

The main problem Mamdani is trying to address is food deserts.

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Is there even a significant issue with food deserts in NYC given its excellent public transit system and prevalence of guys on fixies that can bring you anything?

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Given your intimate knowledge of life in NYC, its cost of living, etc...., you should offer your consulting services from Atlanta.

Or is it possible that someone who lives in the area might actually have better information about living conditions there? Clearly the electorate bought into that promise.

Derec said:

And besides, five stores, one per borough, is not going to improve access for millions of people in any significant way.

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Food deserts are a problem for the poor, not necessarily for everyone. One in each borough, if strategically placed, might be able to serve the target communities well. Without more information, I'm just guessing.

While I doubt the efficacy of this plan, Mandami is attempting to deliver on a campaign promise in a small scale. It certainly doesn't merit the scrutiny nor derision in this thread at this stage.

Derec said:

We are already discussing Mamdani Marts in the other thread, so I am not sure what the value of this one is.

jonatha said:

The main problem Mamdani is trying to address is food deserts.

Click to expand...

Is there even a significant issue with food deserts in NYC given its excellent public transit system and prevalence of guys on fixies that can bring you anything?

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Have you lived in NYC? I have, in the Bronx... the nice part of it. While the public transit is indeed very helpful. It isn't a magic solution to moving groceries around. Additionally, weather, distance, and available selection all come into play here. Using the bus can take a lot of time! And subways are about longer distances, not inter-community.

Derec said:

And besides, five stores, one per borough, is not going to improve access for millions of people in any significant way.

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No, it really won't, but I suppose one does need to start somewhere. If Mamdami was announcing dozens of stores, you'd use that against him as well.

Derec said:

There are no grocery stores at all in the areas he's targeting because the free market can't make money (or enough money) by opening stores there.

Click to expand...

If there is a structural barrier to a grocery store being opened in a neighborhood, then that structural issue should be studied and alleviated if possible.

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How do you make poor urban areas less poor and less dilapidated and lacking in access to corporate capital for improvements due to corporate neglect well over half a century?

Derec said:

A government store will not fix this - it will just make the government store a money pit even it was selling at market prices and not trying to offer these deep discounts Mamdani is advertising.

Providing cash subsidies to consumers wouldn't change that.

Click to expand...

If the issue was really access and not price, why lead with the ridiculous 30% discount over private grocery stores?
How about a system where the city hires bike riders to deliver groceries to low income people, or at least low-income people who are elderly or with disabilities, for free from local grocery stores?

Click to expand...

Bike riders and groceries? You aren't thinking that one through too much. And I say that as a person that cycled in NYC (the Bronx... the nice part... and up north of the Tappan Zee (and Central Park)).

This is an experiment, not a coup. So calm down. Trump is pushing the globe to an energy crisis and you are losing sleep over an attempt to expand access to fresh food to poor communities.

Derec said:

GenesisNemesis said:

If you want experiments like this to stop happening, maybe the right should actually address the affordability issue. Otherwise, keep crying about it.

Click to expand...

Affordability in NYC is somewhat of an intractable issue. Yes, people feel that the "rent is too damn high", but that is just a consequence of having a lot of people who want to live in NYC and limited real estate in the city, especially in Manhattan...

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...and the other four boroughs.

Derec said:

There are really no good solutions to the conundrum.
Build more housing?
Works up to a point, but too dense housing makes it less desirable. Areas like Manhattan are already very dense. More high rises make traffic worse and its challenging to provide all the services. Getting rid of greenspace, which was also one of Mamdani's plans, also makes the neighborhoods less attractive.
Freezing the rents has its own problems.
Landlords need those rents to fund maintenance of the housing units, and yes, also to make a reasonable profit. Freezing the rent while maintenance costs rise is not sustainable.

Click to expand...

Rent control has existed since before Mamdami was born. What the heck are you going on about?!

Jimmy Higgins said:

This is an experiment, not a coup.

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I don't think Mamdani himself would call it an "experiment". He seems to think its a solution. If it is an experiment, its kind of a reckless one, given the consequences of failure, i.e. putting small local grocery stores and bodegas out of business and perhaps too discouraged and jaded to ever come back.

thebeave said:

Jimmy Higgins said:

This is an experiment, not a coup.

Click to expand...

I don't think Mamdani himself would call it an "experiment". He seems to think its a solution. If it is an experiment, its kind of a reckless one, given the consequences of failure, i.e. putting small local grocery stores and bodegas out of business and perhaps too discouraged and jaded to ever come back.

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I don't agree this experiment with communism is going to work either. But to be fair to the liberals, the Trump tariffs were not supposed to work either. And his tariffs also constituted "an experiment". An experiment that worked so well that even Biden continued during his administration!

So I agree with Jimmy. Lets just calm down and see what happens. Right now middle class people are voting with their feet that Florida is a better place to live than New York. But if this works like advertised and average people (especially the younger ones) decide to stay in New York then we will all learn that some parts of communism can work.

After seeing the success China has accomplished with their ideology I am willing to admit the wisdom of their slogan of past leadership. "It does not matter if it is a black cat or a white cat, what matters is that the cat eats mice."

thebeave said:

Jimmy Higgins said:

This is an experiment, not a coup.

Click to expand...

I don't think Mamdani himself would call it an "experiment". He seems to think its a solution. If it is an experiment, its kind of a reckless one, given the consequences of failure, i.e. putting small local grocery stores and bodegas out of business and perhaps too discouraged and jaded to ever come back.

Click to expand...

And you feel it is impossible for there to be collaboration between City Hall and the local markets? Such as putting the products generally not available at said local markets at a discounted (if discounted at all) price and holding the other products to market value?

Your observations of this are bewildering to me.

RVonse said:

thebeave said:

Jimmy Higgins said:

This is an experiment, not a coup.

Click to expand...

I don't think Mamdani himself would call it an "experiment". He seems to think its a solution. If it is an experiment, its kind of a reckless one, given the consequences of failure, i.e. putting small local grocery stores and bodegas out of business and perhaps too discouraged and jaded to ever come back.

Click to expand...

I don't agree this experiment with communism is going to work either. But to be fair to the liberals, the Trump tariffs were not supposed to work either. And his tariffs also constituted "an experiment". An experiment that worked so well that even Biden continued during his administration!

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There is so much wrong with that statement, really impossible to find a location to start addressing it.

RVonse said:

So I agree with Jimmy. Lets just calm down and see what happens. Right now middle class people are voting with their feet that Florida is a better place to live than New York. But if this works like advertised and average people (especially the younger ones) decide to stay in New York then we will all learn that some parts of communism can work.

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The ignorance is quite something else. People are aware of the Greater NYC area right? There is no shortage of people that commute to NYC to work who'd jump at being able to live locally instead of commuting from New Haven, CT. As far as Florida population growth...

article said:

The state’s population of people in their late 50s actually declined between 2020 and 2024. But while folks approaching retirement may be leaving, retirees continue flocking here. The fastest growing group of new Floridians are those over 75 years old.

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Florida's population is growing, but its carries asterisks.

RVonse said:

After seeing the success China has accomplished with their ideology I am willing to admit the wisdom of their slogan of past leadership. "It does not matter if it is a black cat or a white cat, what matters is that the cat eats mice."

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Mr. Populist is having problems with trying to help poor people get access to better food. Must be a right-wing populist.

Jimmy Higgins said:

The ignorance is quite something else. People are aware of the Greater NYC area right? There is no shortage of people that commute to NYC to work who'd jump at being able to live locally instead of commuting from New Haven, CT. As far as Florida population growth...

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A quick search on google AI refutes your article:
Yes, New Yorkers are moving to Florida in large numbers, with Florida remaining the top out-of-state destination for residents leaving New York. Tens of thousands of people make the cross-state move annually, contributing to a major shift in population and wealth


https://www.google.com/search?q=Are+people+moving+from+new+york+city+to+florida&sca_esv=38d28d298ce520d7&sxsrf=APpeQnva7dTlIqN1c3I2oAI7gy7R9e4TCA:1785427557979&source=hp&ei=ZXZrapLLOYflwN4Pyr6v-As&iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamuEdflU-NxYOasLBoWY-jb6KwZsfUD0&ved=0ahUKEwjSkfT64_qVAxWHMtAFHUrfC78Q4dUDCBo&uact=5&oq=Are+people+moving+from+new+york+city+to+florida&gs_lp=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_sowgcJMC4xLjE5LjM4yAevBIAIAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

Jimmy Higgins said:

thebeave said:

Jimmy Higgins said:

This is an experiment, not a coup.

Click to expand...

I don't think Mamdani himself would call it an "experiment". He seems to think its a solution. If it is an experiment, its kind of a reckless one, given the consequences of failure, i.e. putting small local grocery stores and bodegas out of business and perhaps too discouraged and jaded to ever come back.

Click to expand...

And you feel it is impossible for there to be collaboration between City Hall and the local markets? Such as putting the products generally not available at said local markets at a discounted (if discounted at all) price and holding the other products to market value?

Your observations of this are bewildering to me.

Click to expand...

I never made any claim at all about feeling it was "impossible" for there to be collaboration. You just made that up. And who said the 30% discounted food staples were not generally available at the local markets? That seems to be another thing you just made up, unless you can show otherwise. I'm not sure what the significance of holding other products in the city grocery store to market value is. If someone comes in to buy the meat at 30% off, they're likely going buy the non-discounted items they need there as well. Otherwise, its whole other shopping trip at another store. Why would would anyone do that?

RVonse said:

Jimmy Higgins said:

The ignorance is quite something else. People are aware of the Greater NYC area right? There is no shortage of people that commute to NYC to work who'd jump at being able to live locally instead of commuting from New Haven, CT. As far as Florida population growth...

Click to expand...

A quick search on google AI refutes your article:
Yes, New Yorkers are moving to Florida in large numbers, with Florida remaining the top out-of-state destination for residents leaving New York. Tens of thousands of people make the cross-state move annually, contributing to a major shift in population and wealth


https://www.google.com/search?q=Are+people+moving+from+new+york+city+to+florida&sca_esv=38d28d298ce520d7&sxsrf=APpeQnva7dTlIqN1c3I2oAI7gy7R9e4TCA:1785427557979&source=hp&ei=ZXZrapLLOYflwN4Pyr6v-As&iflsig=ABILxe8AAAAAamuEdflU-NxYOasLBoWY-jb6KwZsfUD0&ved=0ahUKEwjSkfT64_qVAxWHMtAFHUrfC78Q4dUDCBo&uact=5&oq=Are+people+moving+from+new+york+city+to+florida&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ii9BcmUgcGVvcGxlIG1vdmluZyBmcm9tIG5ldyB5b3JrIGNpdHkgdG8gZmxvcmlkYTIGEAAYFhgeMgsQABiABBiKBRiGA0iDkQFQ8BhY9I4BcAZ4AJABAJgBtQGgAYgkqgEFMzYuMTa4AQPIAQD4AQGYAjqgAtcpqAIKwgIHECMY6gIYJ8ICEBAjGJ0GGOgGGN0FGOoCGCfCAgoQIxjwBRjqAhgnwgIEECMYJ8ICERAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGMcBGNEDwgIOEC4YgAQYsQMYxwEY0QPCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAg4QABiABBiKBRixAxiDAcICCxAuGIMBGLEDGIAEwgIREAAYgAQYigUYjQYYsQMYgwHCAgsQLhiABBixAxiDAcICBRAAGIAEwgIFEC4YgATCAgQQABgDwgIHEAAYgAQYDZgDFfEFD4e7IdanLyOSBwUzNC4yNKAHudkCsgcFMjguMjS4B_sowgcJMC4xLjE5LjM4yAevBIAIAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

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Retirees have always chosen Florida for their retirement home. There's nothing new about this. My wife's grandmother and step grandfather did it from Michigan forty years ago. The old sitcom Frasier in the early nineties talked about it. Frasier's retired father moved in with him. The father says "All I need is a place to park my fanny." Frasier says under his breath "How about Florida?"

thebeave said:

Jimmy Higgins said:

thebeave said:

Jimmy Higgins said:

This is an experiment, not a coup.

Click to expand...

I don't think Mamdani himself would call it an "experiment". He seems to think its a solution. If it is an experiment, its kind of a reckless one, given the consequences of failure, i.e. putting small local grocery stores and bodegas out of business and perhaps too discouraged and jaded to ever come back.

Click to expand...

And you feel it is impossible for there to be collaboration between City Hall and the local markets? Such as putting the products generally not available at said local markets at a discounted (if discounted at all) price and holding the other products to market value?

Your observations of this are bewildering to me.

Click to expand...

I never made any claim at all about feeling it was "impossible" for there to be collaboration.

Click to expand...

You also didn't say that you thought "children shouldn't be grounded up into a slurry and fed to the poor". I can only work with what you have said.

You DID say you thought what he was doing was "reckless" and that places would be put out of business. That implies you think this is a fait accompli, that is collaboration isn't possible.

thebeave said:

And who said the 30% discounted food staples were not generally available at the local markets? That seems to be another thing you just made up, unless you can show otherwise.

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That would be the part that being addressed with the markets in the first place, the "food deserts". As a note, I didn't invent that term.

thebeave said:

I'm not sure what the significance of holding other products in the city grocery store to market value is. If someone comes in to buy the meat at 30% off, they're likely going buy the non-discounted items they need there as well. Otherwise, its whole other shopping trip at another store. Why would would anyone do that?

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Because they are walking. You think people down in Greenwich Village are hoping the A or C to get to Harlem to buy discounted steak?