2 Outside Reviews Say Cleveland Officer Acted Reasonably in Shooting Tamir

[Axulus]

Two outside investigators looking into the death of Tamir Rice have concluded that a Cleveland police officer, Tim Loehmann, acted reasonably in deciding last year to shoot when he confronted the 12-year-old boy carrying what turned out to be a replica gun.

Those opinions, reached separately by a Colorado prosecutor and a former F.B.I. supervisory special agent, were released Saturday night by the Cuyahoga County prosecutor, Timothy J. McGinty, whose office will ultimately present evidence in the case to a grand jury to decide on possible criminal charges.

“The question is not whether every officer would have reacted the same way,” Kimberly A. Crawford, the retired F.B.I. agent, wrote in her report, which noted that Officer Loehmann had no way of knowing Tamir’s gun was fake. “Rather, the relevant inquiry is whether a reasonable officer, confronting the exact same scenario under identical conditions could have concluded that deadly force was necessary.”

...

“There can be no doubt that Rice’s death was tragic and, indeed, when one considers his age, heartbreaking,” Mr. Sims wrote. But he added that “Officer Loehmann’s belief that Rice posed a threat of serious physical harm or death was objectively reasonable as was his response to that perceived threat.”

...

“When he exited the police car, the officer was likely focused on Rice’s hands as they moved to his waist and lifted his jacket, and not on Rice’s age,” Ms. Crawford wrote. “Even if Officer Loehmann was aware of Rice’s age, it would not have made his use of force unreasonable. A 12-year-old with a gun, unquestionably old enough to pull a trigger, poses a threat equal to that of a full-grown adult in a similar situation.”

Mr. Sims noted that the officers did not know Tamir’s age. A dispatcher did not pass on the 911 caller’s statements that the gun was “probably fake” and that the person holding it was “probably a juvenile.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/u...ted-reasonably-in-shooting-tamir-rice-12.html

 

[Derec]

That makes an indictment unlikely and a conviction nearly impossible.

 

[Axulus]

That makes an indictment unlikely and a conviction nearly impossible.

The BLM crowd will just see it as another example of white institutional racism demonstrating black lives don't matter. The conclusions of these two investigations must have been racially motivated, as no other explanation is possible to the BLM activists.

 

[Derec]

All that said, the shooting was a tragedy all the way around.

 

[crispy]

All im going to say is that there is obviously something wrong when police guns down a kid with a toy gun, and its called 'reasonable' afterwards.

Do you two find it reasonable?

 

[Axulus]

All im going to say is that there is obviously something wrong when police guns down a kid with a toy gun, and its called 'reasonable' afterwards.

Do you two find it reasonable?

Did you read the article? The cop had no way of knowing it was a toy. There was nothing to indicate even a high likelihood if it being a toy. Therefore, the presumption that it was not a toy is reasonable given the potentially deadly nature of being wrong about that.

Furthermore, per the reports, the cop was most likely focused on his hands and therefore didn't have an opportunity to evaluate his age.

 

[repoman]

This is going to basically be about whether they should have set up a perimeter instead of driving up very fast, stopping on a dime and shooting right away. I say the former would have been better and possible.

 

[Axulus]

This is going to basically be about whether they should have set up a perimeter instead of driving up very fast, stopping on a dime and shooting right away. I say the former would have been better and possible.

I agree it couldn've been handled better. But the ability to have handled it better is not the threshold for reasonableness and guilt.

 

[repoman]

This is going to basically be about whether they should have set up a perimeter instead of driving up very fast, stopping on a dime and shooting right away. I say the former would have been better and possible.

I agree it couldn've been handled better. But the ability to have handled it better is not the threshold for reasonableness and guilt.

So if cops get into people's faces and then after provoking people or leaving themselves no time to react rationally that is ok?

This kind of shitting the bed means at least that they should never be cops again. Especially the driver of the car.

 

[Axulus]

I agree it couldn've been handled better. But the ability to have handled it better is not the threshold for reasonableness and guilt.

So if cops get into people's faces and then after provoking people or leaving themselves no time to react rationally that is ok?

This kind of shitting the bed means at least that they should never be cops again. Especially the driver of the car.

Huh? Since when is the standard to be a cop perfection? Two separate reports concluded they acted reasonably.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

All im going to say is that there is obviously something wrong when police guns down a kid with a toy gun, and its called 'reasonable' afterwards.

Do you two find it reasonable?

Did you read the article? The cop had no way of knowing it was a toy.

And made no attempt whatsoever to FIND OUT. They sped a police car up to nearly point blank range, jumped out of the car and shot him in less time than it would have taken him to say his name.

"Shoot first and ask questions later" is NOT a reasonable law enforcement tactic.

Furthermore, per the reports, the cop was most likely focused on his hands and therefore didn't have an opportunity to evaluate his age.

Their failure to identify his age is not the issue. The issue is their callous disregard for the life of a person they chose to engage in the performance of their duties. Basically: without identifying the suspect, without taking any reasonable means to assess the threat he posed, without attempting to obtain any information about his actions, his identity, his possible motives for being there, they chose to resort immediately to violence.

They should both be in prison.

This is going to basically be about whether they should have set up a perimeter instead of driving up very fast, stopping on a dime and shooting right away. I say the former would have been better and possible.

I agree it couldn've been handled better. But the ability to have handled it better is not the threshold for reasonableness and guilt.

If only "I could have handled that better" was a valid defense in a reckless homicide case...

 

[TV and credit cards]

Some clarity on the cruiser's approach to the gazebo. Pictures and maps.
Highway Patrol Report
Why Garmback took W.99th (a dead-end that put them in the grass) instead of West Blvd is a question that needs to be answered. West Blvd would have put the cruiser in the parking lot giving distance between the cruiser and Tamir. It also would have provided a few seconds of time (visual line of sight) for Loehmann to assess the situation and possibly for Tamir to freeze rather than become startled.
Loehmann, a rookie who had an emotional breakdown during his police training had no choice in using deadly force. Garmback, a seven year vet who has already cost the city for his use of excessive force is negligent. To what degree remains to be determined.
These two should not have been partners. This weak rookie should have been partnered with a more solid vet. Someone dropped the ball assigning these two together.

I don't see anything happening to Loehmann. Garmback remains to be seen. The citizens of Cleveland are not going to be happy.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

If this was a "reasonable" police action in this case, can someone suggest what would constitute an "unreasonable" police action given the same circumstances?

 

[RavenSky]

If this was a "reasonable" police action in this case, can someone suggest what would constitute an "unreasonable" police action given the same circumstances?

Seriously! The actions of these two police officers is about as far from "reasonable" as anything I have ever seen.

 

[crispy]

All im going to say is that there is obviously something wrong when police guns down a kid with a toy gun, and its called 'reasonable' afterwards.

Do you two find it reasonable?

Did you read the article? The cop had no way of knowing it was a toy. There was nothing to indicate even a high likelihood if it being a toy. Therefore, the presumption that it was not a toy is reasonable given the potentially deadly nature of being wrong about that.

Furthermore, per the reports, the cop was most likely focused on his hands and therefore didn't have an opportunity to evaluate his age.

Of course he wouldn't know when he drives up and shoots the kid in the face before trying to find out. Thats why this is so unreasonable!!!

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

And who's hoodwinking who? These reviews are "outside" but they are hardly independent. Independent means independent, not cops and prosecutors evaluating the actions of other cops. If anyone thinks these findings are either independent or helpful you will likely be interested in a couple bridges I have for sale.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Did you read the article? The cop had no way of knowing it was a toy. There was nothing to indicate even a high likelihood if it being a toy. Therefore, the presumption that it was not a toy is reasonable given the potentially deadly nature of being wrong about that.

Furthermore, per the reports, the cop was most likely focused on his hands and therefore didn't have an opportunity to evaluate his age.

Of course he wouldn't know when he drives up and shoots the kid in the face before trying to find out. Thats why this is so unreasonable!!!

Clearly it was the driver who acted unreasonably and who should be reprimanded.

 

[fromderinside]

Just what are police protocols in such situations? Surely its not to jump out of your car and shoot the kid.. Seems there needs to be some place where the cop says '"Hey what's in his hand might be a gun. Let's stay inside the relative safety of the car and determine that."

That is reasonable.

Apparently being the cowboy, riding up on the scene, pulling his gun, and shooting anything in front of him, then saying to the empty park "Now its safe King. This case is closed" is protocol?

That is unreasonable.

 

[Will Wiley]

But are they going to have an independent evaluation ?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All im going to say is that there is obviously something wrong when police guns down a kid with a toy gun, and its called 'reasonable' afterwards.

Do you two find it reasonable?

The real problem is realistic replicas in the hands of those who don't understand that the police will react as if they are real.

- - - Updated - - -

This is going to basically be about whether they should have set up a perimeter instead of driving up very fast, stopping on a dime and shooting right away. I say the former would have been better and possible.

And one cop sets up a perimeter how??? That takes a bunch of cops!

- - - Updated - - -

And who's hoodwinking who? These reviews are "outside" but they are hardly independent. Independent means independent, not cops and prosecutors evaluating the actions of other cops. If anyone thinks these findings are either independent or helpful you will likely be interested in a couple bridges I have for sale.

But where are you going to find someone with the needed knowledge outside those areas?