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A Question about Equality

Aw, don't be jealous. You get to play like LeBron James too.

But I don't WANT TO PLAY BASKETBALL! Please! don't make me play basketball!:eek:

There are lots of people who don't like basketball. It's unfair to have them spend time playing it while you get to avoid the game altogether.

I guess you just hate the idea of equality. That's fine. Not everybody in the world needs to be a decent person. :mad:
 
But I don't WANT TO PLAY BASKETBALL! Please! don't make me play basketball!:eek:

There are lots of people who don't like basketball. It's unfair to have them spend time playing it while you get to avoid the game altogether.

I guess you just hate the idea of equality. That's fine. Not everybody in the world needs to be a decent person. :mad:

Watch it, Tom! When I was 14, I played my share of basketball. But then I grew up and my gym teacher was replaced with a gym. I daresay I can do some things LeBron can't do even today, but HE WON'T PLAY!
 
Watch it, Tom! When I was 14, I played my share of basketball. But then I grew up and my gym teacher was replaced with a gym. I daresay I can do some things LeBron can't do even today, but HE WON'T PLAY!

That's because LeBron James is a coward.
 
Well it does appear that right wingers, on top of having bad social, political, and economic arguments, they must have pretty shitty basketball games too.

Can you just see Limbaugh doing a fast break down the court?;) Or perhaps Boener trying to get his eyes to focus properly to see just one basket to shoot at? Or McConnel cowering from all those black people on the opposing team?

That was sort of my point... It is wrong to force all people into any game at all. If they want to play...cool. If they don't, that should be equally cool.:thinking:
 
...or you raise everyone to the highest achiever's level. Both are equally fitting approaches in your strawman scenario, and there's no specific reason to chose one or the other.

Lets say you have a class of 4th grade students that in our current system have some who read at the 6th grade level, some at the 5th grade level, some at the 4th grade, some who read at the 3rd grade level, an 1 kid who reads at the 2nd grade level.

In the world of equal outcomes even if you get that 1 kid who reads at the 2nd grade level up to the 3rd grade level you have to hold all those kids who would be reading at the higher levels back...
... or you have to find a way to get all of those kids reading at a sixth grade level, producing the same net result and satisfying your "equity of outcomes" strawman. Again, there's no specific reason why holding them all back is preferable to pushing them all forward.

And what genie is granting your wishes? Because your scenario isn't going to happen in the real world.

And frankly I can't imagine what about the world of equal outcomes would cause that 1 kid to read better.
I would assume the same thing that causes all the kids who read at the higher grade levels to read worse.

What it will do is cause them to stagnate rather than advance as they should.
 
Implying that it would require an infinite amount of money to help a struggling student catch up with the rest of his class.

If the pool isn't infinite then adding a dollar to pile A means taking a dollar out of pile B.

Verdict: Bullshit.

Verdict: You are using leftist "economics" rather than real-world economics.

And you're still not addressing the dumbing-down issue. You teach to the poor students and the good students will be totally bored.
You teach to the poor students and EVERYONE will be totally bored, especially the poor students.

The only subjects where material difficulty is even a factor in that way is the hard science disciplines, particularly math and physics, which most students find boring for reasons that have nothing to do with their difficulty. In those classes, the difference between a good student and an under-achieving one basically comes down to study habits and foundational skills. And yet we now live in a country where very few people are ever less than seven feet from a calculator and foundational math skills have become less and less important; the difference in study habits and disciplined time-management then becomes the ONLY meaningful difference between those two groups of students.

You're not addressing the issue at all. The teacher has two choices:

1) Teach to the good students. They'll advance, the poor students will be left behind and learn nothing.

2) Teach to the poor students. They'll make progress but the good students will know what's being taught, they won't make any progress.

In the real world the teacher will aim for whatever group is larger--this is a big part of the problem with poor schools, the teachers are faced with a bunch of poor students and thus ensuring that the few good students go nowhere.

Equality of outcome forces option #2.

I don't suppose it would require an infinite amount of money to teach struggling students effective studying habits? Or is that just for students whose parents can afford private one-on-one tutors?

One-on-one would avoid the problem. We can't afford it, though. I think we can go a long ways towards this with having computers being the primary teaching tool, though.

No. We are after equality of opportunity.
And the equality of EDUCATIONAL outcomes is the only way to achieve that. A high school dropout does not have the same opportunities as the valedictorian from an elite college prep school, or for that matter, even from most college graduates. Those who favor equity of outcomes proceed from the assumption that raising all students to or above a minimum level of achievement will give them opportunities to live a happy and productive life and become functional, well-adjusted law-abiding citizens eventually raising functional, well-adjusted law-abiding children.

So everyone is valedictorian???

And then there's people like you, who respond with "Let them study cake."

It's not "leftist" to think it is worth the effort to try and prevent bad things from happening; it's not "leftist" to look at someone who is having trouble and think "Maybe there's a way to help that person." It's not "leftist" to look at a child who is struggling in school and decide that whatever it costs to give that child a brighter future would be money well spent.

It's called "being a decent human being."

I do not know that you are actually capable of doing this.

The problem is not with looking for good solutions. The problem is with assuming they exist. You blame us for not implementing the good solutions, never mind that they don't exist to be implemented.

And note that a whatever-it-costs-it's-worth-it argument is by it's nature automatically wrong.
 
Not possible to take you seriously at this point. Check reality and try again.

It is exactly as realistic (meaning not at all) to raise everyone to the highest point as it is to reduce everyone to the lowest point. This is especially true in education, where no known method currently exists to REMOVE education that a student has already obtained from one means or another, nor is it possible to prevent highly intelligent or motivated students from learning lessons on their own. Simply put: you can't "dumb everyone down" for precisely the reasons you can't "smart everyone up."

You simply don't give them any material to learn more from. That will stop the vast majority from accomplishing anything.

In between those extremes are two possibilities that deviate dramatically from your strawman.
They are
1) elevate all students to an minimal standard of competence so they will have an opportunity to support themselves in adulthood
2) elevate only the gifted students to a VERY high standard of competence so they will have an opportunity to enter extremely lucrative and high-paying fields as soon as they enter the workforce

And even between those two possibilities are variations of implementation, school and district policy and even circumstantial outcomes of individuals, collectively known as "nuance."

In the real world #1 isn't possible, any more than you can make every horse drink.
 
equality -- equ AL ity -- the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability

equity -- equ <no extra syllable> ity -- the quality of being fair or impartial; fairness; impartiality[/indent]

As can be seen from the OP, the topic of this thread is equALity of outcomes. Nobody in this thread is arguing against equity of outcomes.

Pedantry notwithstanding, is there an actual social/political movement in America -- or anywhere else, for that matter -- that is proposing "equality" as opposed to "equity"?
Somebody starts a new equality thread on TFT every two or three weeks. So your theory is that all these threads are actually about equity: about getting people to be fair or impartial rather than about getting people's wealth or income or job prospects or whatever to become more equal? That's a testable theory. If we go into some of those threads and inspect the arguments for "equality", do you think we'll see they contain a lot of exhibits of people failing to make impartial decisions about one another and hardly any exhibits of some people having more stuff than others?

And is the usage sufficiently different in actual political discourse for those two concepts to be considered distinct?
Are you suggesting that if people commit an equivocation fallacy incessantly enough then it ceases to be a fallacy?

And no, I'm not asking about the "possible implications of leftist thought" in enforcing equity or equality. I'm asking if there are so-called "leftists" who actually consider that distinction meaningful to the concept they are referring to?
Undoubtedly; in any mass movement there are always at least a few thoughtful people. But that isn't the issue; the issue is the great majority of "leftists" who appear not to consider that distinction meaningful at all. They appear to subconsciously take for granted that the two concepts are one and the same; they complain about inequality; they demonstrate inequality without bothering to attempt to demonstrate unfairness; and then when some unbeliever in the equivalence of equality and fairness points out the absurd implications of trying to make people equal, they falsely accuse him of advocating unfairness and partiality. You may call this pattern of behavior "not being pedantic". I call it "irrational".
 
Well it does appear that right wingers, on top of having bad social, political, and economic arguments, they must have pretty shitty basketball games too.

Can you just see Limbaugh doing a fast break down the court?;) Or perhaps Boener trying to get his eyes to focus properly to see just one basket to shoot at? Or McConnel cowering from all those black people on the opposing team?

You're forgetting. They're all going to play like LeBron James too. It will be impressive to see Limbaugh take off from the free throw line, explode 40" into the air and reverse tomahawk dunk.

Well, maybe not that impressive because everyone else will be able to do it too. Even the little babies.
 
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