A simple explanation of free will.

[apeman]

First of all what do we mean by "free" ? In this case I think we mean that our will can be our own, that it has a degree of freedom from the outside world. In other words we are not automatons being driven by outside forces alone.

Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world is that we are able to imagine that which does not actually exist.Our minds are not simply mirrors of the reality around us, our minds have a degree of autonomy (to think ahead for example).

We are clearly not free to do whatever we will, we are however free to attempt to pursue those objectives that are available to us.We can use our imaginations to discover new truths on our path of knowledge in the pursuit of our objectives.

People may argue that we can not choose what we desire (our objectives), but this is a false understanding of the situation since it is clear that we all want what we think is best (for any given situation). It should also be clear to the wise mind that one should never just assume that one is right about what objectives one should have, one should accept that increased knowledge (born of imagination of ourselves and others) frees us from those prejudices that hold us back or mislead us.

I hope that's a fairly clear explanation.

 

[Unbeatable]

First of all what do we mean by "free" ? In this case I think we mean that our will can be our own, that it has a degree of freedom from the outside world. In other words we are not automatons being driven by outside forces alone.

Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world is that we are able to imagine that which does not actually exist.

Not proof. Arguably not even true, depending on how you define "that". Interstellar spaceships and wizards may not exist, but any image is just made out of shapes, and shapes do exist. Lines, angles, electromagnetic wavelengths, vibrations, symbols, length/width/depth, duration, etc. The raw ingredients all exist. Try imagining something not made out of the same ingredients as the world we perceive with our senses. A color that doesn't exist, for example. Or an object with four spacial dimensions (no, not just a mathematical model of it, or a 3-dimensional projection of it). Our perceptions are bound by the interactions between available data and our physical architecture, which is bound by heredity, which comes from the outside world. We don't eat human muscle tissue or cartilage or excrement, but parts of our bodies turn food into those things. So too does another part turn reality into fantasy.

 

[4321lynx]

First of all what do we mean by "free" ? In this case I think we mean that our will can be our own, that it has a degree of freedom from the outside world. In other words we are not automatons being driven by outside forces alone.

Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world is that we are able to imagine that which does not actually exist.

Not proof. Arguably not even true, depending on how you define "that". Interstellar spaceships and wizards may not exist, but any image is just made out of shapes, and shapes do exist. Lines, angles, electromagnetic wavelengths, vibrations, symbols, length/width/depth, duration, etc. The raw ingredients all exist. Try imagining something not made out of the same ingredients as the world we perceive with our senses. A color that doesn't exist, for example. Or an object with four spacial dimensions (no, not just a mathematical model of it, or a 3-dimensional projection of it). Our perceptions are bound by the interactions between available data and our physical architecture, which is bound by heredity, which comes from the outside world. We don't eat human muscle tissue or cartilage or excrement, but parts of our bodies turn food into those things. So too does another part turn reality into fantasy.

You have just 'imagined' all those things by talking about them. Imagine does not need to mean 'to make an image' of a thing, literally or mentally. You imagined "unimaginable" things.

 

[Unbeatable]

You have just 'imagined' all those things by talking about them. Imagine does not need to mean 'to make an image' of a thing, literally or mentally. You imagined "unimaginable" things.

Unless you're actually defending the claim that "Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world is that we are able to imagine that which does not actually exist.", it's not important to me what you think imagine "needs" to mean. Have the OP clarify what they mean by "imagine", and I'll just come up with another argument for how our ability to "imagine" things which don't actually exist is not "Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world".

 

[apeman]

First of all what do we mean by "free" ? In this case I think we mean that our will can be our own, that it has a degree of freedom from the outside world. In other words we are not automatons being driven by outside forces alone.

Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world is that we are able to imagine that which does not actually exist.

Not proof. Arguably not even true, depending on how you define "that". Interstellar spaceships and wizards may not exist, but any image is just made out of shapes, and shapes do exist. Lines, angles, electromagnetic wavelengths, vibrations, symbols, length/width/depth, duration, etc. The raw ingredients all exist. Try imagining something not made out of the same ingredients as the world we perceive with our senses. A color that doesn't exist, for example. Or an object with four spacial dimensions (no, not just a mathematical model of it, or a 3-dimensional projection of it). Our perceptions are bound by the interactions between available data and our physical architecture, which is bound by heredity, which comes from the outside world. We don't eat human muscle tissue or cartilage or excrement, but parts of our bodies turn food into those things. So too does another part turn reality into fantasy.

The components exist, but the particular combination does not. So red may have always existed but a red Ferrari has not. The Ferrari requires that somebody thinks about it prior to its existence.Nature alone could never produce a Ferrari, it is required that a being whose imagination is not bound to the world as it is creates it.

As I have said , our minds are not mere mirrors, they have a freedom to think of things which don't exist...even if those things are non-existent combinations rather than something completely new.We have freedom of creativity within the bounds of this actual reality.

 

[4321lynx]

Not proof. Arguably not even true, depending on how you define "that". Interstellar spaceships and wizards may not exist, but any image is just made out of shapes, and shapes do exist. Lines, angles, electromagnetic wavelengths, vibrations, symbols, length/width/depth, duration, etc. The raw ingredients all exist. Try imagining something not made out of the same ingredients as the world we perceive with our senses. A color that doesn't exist, for example. Or an object with four spacial dimensions (no, not just a mathematical model of it, or a 3-dimensional projection of it). Our perceptions are bound by the interactions between available data and our physical architecture, which is bound by heredity, which comes from the outside world. We don't eat human muscle tissue or cartilage or excrement, but parts of our bodies turn food into those things. So too does another part turn reality into fantasy.

The components exist, but the particular combination does not. So red may have always existed but a red Ferrari has not. The Ferrari requires that somebody thinks about it prior to its existence.Nature alone could never produce a Ferrari, it is required that a being whose imagination is not bound to the world as it is creates it.

As I have said , our minds are not mere mirrors, they have a freedom to think of things which don't exist...even if those things are non-existent combinations rather than something completely new.We have freedom of creativity within the bounds of this actual reality.

I hate guessing but I think the argument is that Nature (or the Universe, or God -- take your choice) alone produced the mind which created the Ferrari and that therefore we are limited to create, imagine, or think only about that which Nature allows us to do.
That's enough Free Will for me, I don't want to be god.

 

[Unbeatable]

The components exist, but the particular combination does not. So red may have always existed but a red Ferrari has not. The Ferrari requires that somebody thinks about it prior to its existence.Nature alone could never produce a Ferrari, it is required that a being whose imagination is not bound to the world as it is creates it.

As I have said , our minds are not mere mirrors, they have a freedom to think of things which don't exist...even if those things are non-existent combinations rather than something completely new.We have freedom of creativity within the bounds of this actual reality.

Ah, okay. I guess my original argument still applies, then. Good day to you.

 

[OLDMAN]

There is nothing that you can imagine that cannot be expressed physically. Everything is within the bounds of actual reality. That is where it came from in the first place. Scrambled eggs are not free will.

 

[Togo]

There is nothing that you can imagine that cannot be expressed physically. Everything is within the bounds of actual reality. That is where it came from in the first place. Scrambled eggs are not free will.

How are these 'expressed physically'?

1) Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there....
2) The 'Force' from Star Wars
3) The character I'm creating for a story

 

[arkirk]

There is nothing that you can imagine that cannot be expressed physically. Everything is within the bounds of actual reality. That is where it came from in the first place. Scrambled eggs are not free will.

How are these 'expressed physically'?

1) Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there....
2) The 'Force' from Star Wars
3) The character I'm creating for a story

Not every sequence of words is entirely rational. We still have lying. We still have simply putting some language together and then trying to imagine what it might mean. We are unsuccessful because illogical language will not describe anything of value. It is like incorrectly (accidentally) entered numbers in a math problem. You simply get the WRONG ANSWER. As for your "character" you mentally consider actual tendencies of actual humans and decide that some of them are worth writing about. You can hardly be said to have created "honesty" though it can be described. I would never bet on FREE WILL existing. It is just that our lives and our relationships with our environment are so damned complex we truly may "feel" we are free when there is no escape from a determinism we still find full of uncertainties.

 

[Speakpigeon]

First of all what do we mean by "free" ? In this case I think we mean that our will can be our own, that it has a degree of freedom from the outside world. In other words we are not automatons being driven by outside forces alone.

Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world is that we are able to imagine that which does not actually exist.

Not proof. Arguably not even true, depending on how you define "that". Interstellar spaceships and wizards may not exist, but any image is just made out of shapes, and shapes do exist. Lines, angles, electromagnetic wavelengths, vibrations, symbols, length/width/depth, duration, etc. The raw ingredients all exist. Try imagining something not made out of the same ingredients as the world we perceive with our senses. A color that doesn't exist, for example. Or an object with four spacial dimensions (no, not just a mathematical model of it, or a 3-dimensional projection of it). Our perceptions are bound by the interactions between available data and our physical architecture, which is bound by heredity, which comes from the outside world. We don't eat human muscle tissue or cartilage or excrement, but parts of our bodies turn food into those things. So too does another part turn reality into fantasy.

First, it is clear that some of the things you identified may exist in the world, while others don't. Colours only exist in our perception of light. They don't exist in the light itself, the objects etc. Colours are mental impression, so literally they are imaginary qualities.

I can accept that shapes exist out there because there doesn't seem to be any essential difference between what we perceive (the shape out there) and our perception (the shapes in our imagination). Yet, it is still true that many shapes don't really seem to exist as such in the outside world. Triangles certainly don't exist. Dodecahedrons don't either. There are probably many different shapes though but most of the shape we imagine (percepts) are gross approximation of the actual very complicated shapes that may exist out there. The spherical shape of the electron has been recently confirmed with a margin of error less than 10^-27. So, Ok, I'm convinced, round shapes exist. Yet, we do not actually perceive the shape of an electron, not even the electron itself to begin with (although we might be able to see an electron coming through our retina, I don't know).

So, we (our brain) had to invent all these shapes.

Though I wouldn't think of that as any indication, let alone proof, that we have free will.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

First of all what do we mean by "free" ? In this case I think we mean that our will can be our own, that it has a degree of freedom from the outside world. In other words we are not automatons being driven by outside forces alone.

Yes, some degree of freedom from the outside world.

Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world is that we are able to imagine that which does not actually exist.

Excellent. but it's only a good justification (not a proof) that we as human beings have a degree of freedom with respect to our environment. I guess that has to be good enough.

We are clearly not free to do whatever we will, we are however free to attempt to pursue those objectives that are available to us.We can use our imaginations to discover new truths on our path of knowledge in the pursuit of our objectives.

Yeah, that's how we got to make scientific discoveries.

People may argue that we can not choose what we desire (our objectives), but this is a false understanding of the situation since it is clear that we all want what we think is best (for any given situation).

If we were to choose each time whatever is best then it wouldn't be free will since there's just one possibility, i.e. whatever is best, and therefore no choice at all. That wouldn't be a proof that free will doesn't exist but we would have no example of free will in the act.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Not proof. Arguably not even true, depending on how you define "that". Interstellar spaceships and wizards may not exist, but any image is just made out of shapes, and shapes do exist. Lines, angles, electromagnetic wavelengths, vibrations, symbols, length/width/depth, duration, etc. The raw ingredients all exist. Try imagining something not made out of the same ingredients as the world we perceive with our senses. A color that doesn't exist, for example. Or an object with four spacial dimensions (no, not just a mathematical model of it, or a 3-dimensional projection of it). Our perceptions are bound by the interactions between available data and our physical architecture, which is bound by heredity, which comes from the outside world. We don't eat human muscle tissue or cartilage or excrement, but parts of our bodies turn food into those things. So too does another part turn reality into fantasy.

The components exist, but the particular combination does not. So red may have always existed but a red Ferrari has not. The Ferrari requires that somebody thinks about it prior to its existence.Nature alone could never produce a Ferrari, it is required that a being whose imagination is not bound to the world as it is creates it.

As I have said , our minds are not mere mirrors, they have a freedom to think of things which don't exist...even if those things are non-existent combinations rather than something completely new.We have freedom of creativity within the bounds of this actual reality.

Yes, that's good enough for me.

I would just nitpick about "Nature alone could never produce a Ferrari" because if human beings are natural beings then of course nature alone did create Ferraries. So it would be: Nature without human beings (or something close enough) could not have created a Ferrari. But I guess that's what you meant.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

There is nothing that you can imagine that cannot be expressed physically.

What does that mean? It is that if I imagine a Ferrari then a Ferrari can be built? Surely not. So what did you mean?

Everything is within the bounds of actual reality.

That's sooo trivially true. Although you might have wanted to say, "Everything that exists is within the bounds of actual reality". I guess that was it.

That is where it came from in the first place. Scrambled eggs are not free will.

Definitely true as well.

Yet I may be free to choose between scrambled eggs, soft or hard boiled eggs, fried eggs, poached and even chocolate eggs and Easter eggs.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

How are these 'expressed physically'?

1) Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there....
2) The 'Force' from Star Wars
3) The character I'm creating for a story

Not every sequence of words is entirely rational. We still have lying. We still have simply putting some language together and then trying to imagine what it might mean. We are unsuccessful because illogical language will not describe anything of value. It is like incorrectly (accidentally) entered numbers in a math problem. You simply get the WRONG ANSWER. As for your "character" you mentally consider actual tendencies of actual humans and decide that some of them are worth writing about. You can hardly be said to have created "honesty" though it can be described.

The infinite may or may not exist but we cannot be suspected of having observed anything we could possibly know was an actual infinite. Yet, we did come up with the idea of the infinite. We even worked out a whole theory of infinite numbers.

So what exactly do you think is the status of our idea of the infinite? Is it irrational? Are mathematicians lying? Or have we some sort of extrasensory power allowing us to perceive actual infinite things?

I would never bet on FREE WILL existing. It is just that our lives and our relationships with our environment are so damned complex we truly may "feel" we are free when there is no escape from a determinism we still find full of uncertainties.

Ok, you seem to say that free will doesn't exist at all. Yet we do have the idea of free will. So, we invented the idea of something that doesn't exist, i.e. free will. Yet, you also say we cannot trully invent anything. How is this to be understood?
EB

 

[fromderinside]

How is this to be understood?
EB

... apparent agency? derail?

How is this getting at a simple explanation of free will?

 

[DBT]

As if the ability to choose is 'free will' - a definition that is simple, shallow and wrong.

 

[Juma]

As if the ability to choose is 'free will' - a definition that is simple, shallow and wrong.

It is not wrong, it just means slmething else than you mean when you talk abiut "free will".

You should talk a look at Lweis Carrols "Humpty Dumpty"

 

[DrZoidberg]

First of all what do we mean by "free" ?

Always good to start with definitions. So far I´m with you.

In this case I think we mean that our will can be our own,

Circular. It´s like saying that our will is our will. Ok. So what?

that it has a degree of freedom from the outside world.

All you need to do to establish this is to set up a causal link, remove any intermediary steps and you have proven freedom without proving anything.

In other words we are not automatons being driven by outside forces alone.

I´m not sure how this follows.

Proof that our minds are not completely bound/caused by the outside world is that we are able to imagine that which does not actually exist. Our minds are not simply mirrors of the reality around us, our minds have a degree of autonomy (to think ahead for example).

I´m going with non sequitur. Doesn´t prove what you think it proves. It just proves that our minds are capable of symbolic thought, and that we can map wholly abstract entities onto realities or see patterns that may not really exist. This isn´t proof of any freedom. It´s not proof we don´t have freedom. It´s just an interesting quirk of the human mind that has no bearing on this subject.

We are clearly not free to do whatever we will, we are however free to attempt to pursue those objectives that are available to us.

I´m going with go with nonsense. I don´t know what if anything this line means.

We can use our imaginations to discover new truths on our path of knowledge in the pursuit of our objectives.

Our capacity for imagination still doesn´t prove any of the brain is free from anything. It´s like saying that the redness of a car proves it has free will.

People may argue that we can not choose what we desire (our objectives), but this is a false understanding of the situation since it is clear that we all want what we think is best (for any given situation). It should also be clear to the wise mind that one should never just assume that one is right about what objectives one should have, one should accept that increased knowledge (born of imagination of ourselves and others) frees us from those prejudices that hold us back or mislead us.

How does any of this connect to anything else you said?

I hope that's a fairly clear explanation.

Hmm...

 

[DBT]

As if the ability to choose is 'free will' - a definition that is simple, shallow and wrong.

It is not wrong, it just means slmething else than you mean when you talk abiut "free will".

You should talk a look at Lweis Carrols "Humpty Dumpty"

Not sure about what you are trying to say.