A Unique Threat

[AthenaAwakened]

What needs to be done to deal with the threat of ISIS et. al. that is not being done? How much more and specifically what measures need to be taken? And is anything that can be done ever to be considered a step too far?

It's a bit like saying we should have closed the stable door after the horse had bolted. The US and allied campaigns for regime change, removed the control of authorities from the countries whose presidents were overthrown. ISIS and others seized the initiative. It may take a long time through reason to remove the influence of ISIS once it is defeated military. There are some claims that ISIS is smuggling some of this fighters to Europe with the Migrants. This was apparently true in one case concerning the Paris attackers.

The Russians claimed that another problem is the US was only slightly targetting ISIS positions hoping they could first wipe out the Syrian government. The Gulf States and Saudi can do more to combat this but their planes are idle. They are busy fighting a war in Yemen. Saudi has 700 latest war planes and not a single bomb has been aimed at ISIS.

And all of the above has WHAT to do with the three questions asked?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I was talking about furniture deaths.

I am not concerned with furniture deaths. Should I be?

And what is your typical domestic terrorist anyway?

White supremacists and/or Christian Identity groups are still the most common of these. But they've been at it for so long that the FBI and Law Enforcement have gotten REALLY GOOD at thwarting them.

Islamists cannot escalate attacks in places they don't live and are not intimately familiar with. So the threat in our case is the RECRUITMENT of Islamists among local Muslim populations. This is certain a problem for Europe, where disaffected and poor Muslims make easy recruits and can be talked into blaming their problems on someone else. Daesh is a much harder sell in places like the U.S. and Canada where Muslims actually live pretty successful lives and aren't stupid enough to fall for the propaganda.

Statistically that's true, US muslims are less prone to terrorism than EU ones but there is still plenty of people who are ready to take gun and shoot people randomly.

Yes, and that strongly concerns me. It's just that, statistically speaking, "take a gun and shoot people randomly" doesn't require a link to Islamist terrorism, especially in America.

Again, you keep comparing something which should not be compared. But if you wish, then percentage wise redneck terrorists are much smaller problem than Islamic terrorists. By your logic US can have small islamist green card quota.

Recognizing that Islamists pose a miniscule problem is NOT the same thing as encouraging their entry. I would encourage their arrest and prosecution whenever and wherever we catch them. But this is a thread about whether or not Islamisim is a UNIQUE threat to the West, warranting extreme measures to deal with it. My conclusion is it is NOT, in fact, a unique threat, just one of many relatively minor threats we already know about.

 

[TSwizzle]

I wonder what unique threat would cause the US to tighten the visa waiver program ?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I am not particularly concerned with immediate threat from islamism. My concern is primarily with cost of dealing with that threat, it costs a shitload of money directly and indirectly to support this shitty religion. Their endless push for right to cover their faces while taking pictures for documents, their implicit threats of sharia law is pretty annoying, but main thing is money and distraction from things which are more important.

This is an immigration issue, then, and I agree that a more efficient and streamlined immigration system would benefit Europe AND the United States for a variety of reasons.

But again, this was about Islamism being a "unique threat" to the west, not about whether or not Islamic migration is uniquely burdensome to the taxpayers.

Having said that, it would be a mistake to underestimate ability of these assholes to conduct something much worse than 9-11.

This is a fair point, and is the closest I've heard to a coherent argument for Islamist terrorism to be "unique." I would say, they are one of the few "chaotic evil" movements currently active in the world, so they are unique only by virtue of their rarity.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What needs to be done to deal with the threat of ISIS et. al. that is not being done?

Absolutely nothing. The window of opportunity to intervene constructively has come and gone.

There may be more opportunities later, but Daesh is just a symptom of our failures. The best we can mitigate the symptoms, work for long-term recovery, and try to remember not to repeat the mistakes that got is IN to this mess in the first place.

And is anything that can be done ever to be considered a step too far?

Any direct action we take at this point would be the eleventh step too far. We've been going in the wrong direction since day one.

I wonder what unique threat would cause the US to tighten the visa waiver program ?

A cold war with India and/or China that results in spies or saboteurs from those countries becoming a genuine concern.

 

[whichphilosophy]

It's a bit like saying we should have closed the stable door after the horse had bolted. The US and allied campaigns for regime change, removed the control of authorities from the countries whose presidents were overthrown. ISIS and others seized the initiative. It may take a long time through reason to remove the influence of ISIS once it is defeated military. There are some claims that ISIS is smuggling some of this fighters to Europe with the Migrants. This was apparently true in one case concerning the Paris attackers.

The Russians claimed that another problem is the US was only slightly targetting ISIS positions hoping they could first wipe out the Syrian government. The Gulf States and Saudi can do more to combat this but their planes are idle. They are busy fighting a war in Yemen. Saudi has 700 latest war planes and not a single bomb has been aimed at ISIS.

And all of the above has WHAT to do with the three questions asked?

The cure to ISIS in retrospect was not to let it flourish in the vacuum caused by the collapse of the various regimes we left over. Military warfare for the moment is only a temporary solution.

 

[Jayjay]

I wonder what unique threat would cause the US to tighten the visa waiver program ?

I guess the current one qualifies?

Department of Homeland Security:

The United States today began implementing changes under the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 (the Act). U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) welcomes more than a million passengers arriving to the United States every day and is committed to facilitating legitimate travel while maintaining the highest standards of security and border protection. Under the Act, travelers in the following categories are no longer eligible to travel or be admitted to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP):

* Nationals of VWP countries who have traveled to or been present in Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria on or after March 1, 2011 (with limited exceptions for travel for diplomatic or military purposes in the service of a VWP country).
* Nationals of VWP countries who are also nationals of Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I guess the current one qualifies?

Department of Homeland Security:

The United States today began implementing changes under the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 (the Act). U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) welcomes more than a million passengers arriving to the United States every day and is committed to facilitating legitimate travel while maintaining the highest standards of security and border protection. Under the Act, travelers in the following categories are no longer eligible to travel or be admitted to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP):

* Nationals of VWP countries who have traveled to or been present in Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria on or after March 1, 2011 (with limited exceptions for travel for diplomatic or military purposes in the service of a VWP country).
* Nationals of VWP countries who are also nationals of Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria.

The Sudanese are more of a threat to each other than to anyone else though ISIS appears to be actively trying to recruit 'disillusioned youth in some regions'. British, Canadians Indians, Malaysians Chinese and many from friendly countries in Asia travel to that region on a regular basis due to several oil construction projects in the region. Other threats could be Yemen as there is a civil war which also includes ISIS and Al Qaeda pushing to increase their power Libya is also a likely security risk with several factions of ISIS and Al Qaeda controlling various regions created by the power vacuum arising out of the civil war against Gaddafi, followed by the various factions then turning on each other.