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About those gospel writers

I'd say so. Today's Tea Partiers (and a morbid % of Republicans in general) think the President is Muslim (even though they're scandalized by the preacher whose church he once attended), non-U.S. born, an atheist....
Noah's boat, what's not to believe? Except that a 600-year-old man with a drinking problem might fudge a few details.
 
It would have suited the purpose of the gospel writers to specifically mention the Jewish Uprising. They could have argued, as Christians subsequently did argue, that the crushing of the Uprising was God's punishment to the Jews for not recognizing their Messiah.

If you don't know "with any assurance" who wrote the gospels, then how do you know what their purpose for writing their gospels was?

Of course, the author of John explicitly told us what his purpose for writing was: John 20.31:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

With that, I fail to see how mentioning an uprising some three decades after the events described would be necessary to convince others to believe that Jesus lived, died, and rose again.
 
Interesting to see this discussion re-occuring after it was beat to death on previous incarnations of this message board....

But regarding the dating of G. John, we do have one very good anachronism:

Kysar states concerning the dating of the Gospel of John: "Those who relate the expulsion to a formal effort on the part of Judaism to purge itself of Christian believers link the composition of the gospel with a date soon after the Council of Jamnia, which is supposed to have promulgated such an action. Hence, these scholars would date John after 90. Those inclined to see the expulsion more in terms of an informal action on the part of a local synagogue are free to propose an earlier date." (p. 919)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html
 
May be a bit off topic, but I'm interested in a clear and concise refutation of ''bible prophecy was fulfilled in 1948'' - I'm not sure what verses actually give the prophecy. Based on Google searches, there seems to be just a few vague references being misinterpreted.
 
A Google search for "Bible Prophecy 1948" turns up various Christians and Jews quoting verses which they think predict the establishment of the state of Israel in that year. It also turns up Christians who say the Bible didn't prophesy this. Go figure.
 
A Google search for "Bible Prophecy 1948" turns up various Christians and Jews quoting verses which they think predict the establishment of the state of Israel in that year. It also turns up Christians who say the Bible didn't prophesy this. Go figure.

That's all I got. So I was wondering if someone on this forum who is familiar with this particular claim may know more about the basis of the claim and its flaws in some detail.
 
A Google search for "Bible Prophecy 1948" turns up various Christians and Jews quoting verses which they think predict the establishment of the state of Israel in that year. It also turns up Christians who say the Bible didn't prophesy this. Go figure.

That's all I got. So I was wondering if someone on this forum who is familiar with this particular claim may know more about the basis of the claim and its flaws in some detail.

Sure: The basis of the claim is that some people really really want to believe it; and it's major flaws are that it's total bollocks, and that many people are too smart to fall for a load of unsupported crap pulled directly from the arse of someone with an agenda.

You're welcome. :)
 
That's all I got. So I was wondering if someone on this forum who is familiar with this particular claim may know more about the basis of the claim and its flaws in some detail.

Sure: The basis of the claim is that some people really really want to believe it; and it's major flaws are that it's total bollocks, and that many people are too smart to fall for a load of unsupported crap pulled directly from the arse of someone with an agenda.

You're welcome. :)
Sorry. I require scholarly, peer-reviewed consensus.
 
Sure: The basis of the claim is that some people really really want to believe it; and it's major flaws are that it's total bollocks, and that many people are too smart to fall for a load of unsupported crap pulled directly from the arse of someone with an agenda.

You're welcome. :)
Sorry. I require scholarly, peer-reviewed consensus.

I was hoping for a bit more detail....but, not to worry.
 
It seems to me that the way our mainstream biblical scholars still see the early history of Christian gospels can be best compared with Creationism. After all, each of our mainstream Synoptic theories today -- whether it is 2ST (Two Source Theory), 2GT (Two Gospels Theory), or Farrer -- is premised essentially on the assumption that all of the Synoptic gospels somehow emerged into the world in a single act of creation -- each put together by a single writer, it seems, an exegetical genius of some sort, locked up in a private study somewhere, and isolated from all the others. And after each of the gospels had been written down "during the first century", it had been frozen textually, more or less, somewhat miraculously perhaps?

But what I'm offering here, on the other hand, is essentially an evolutionary view of gospels' history. And, on this view, no single date of creation can ever be affixed to any of our 4 canonical gospels. Their development was a continuous process, that started perhaps even before 70 CE, and continued well past 200 CE. And, all throughout, while this process unfolded, there had been a lot of cross-pollination among the gospels -- the sort of a cross-pollination that's usually pretty obvious even to a casual reader. After all, especially after the 4 gospels had been assembled together into a single edition ca 170 CE, the whole collection was owned by the Church, so all 4 gospels had a potential common editor who was quite interested in making their accounts appear more harmonious.

And, in general, I find that if one discusses these matters with non-professionals, for a change, they will usually express no surprise at all upon hearing that the Church continued to develop and "improve" these works for quite a long period of time as it saw fit. After all, it's a common enough assumption that the Church was the owner of these texts right from the beginning, so why wouldn't their owner continue to make some "improvements" to them, if it saw the need to do so?
 
How many Christians during the first century CE ?

around 31 CE, the twelve apostles, and a few women.
around 70 CE, they could be 30 to 50, small groups in Jerusalem, Rome, Ephesus, Philadelphia, Laodicea.
The development of the gospels may have started even before 70 CE, with the development of the earliest liturgical source-texts such as an early Passover Haggadah (The Haggadah (Hebrew "telling") is a Jewish religious text that sets out the order of the Passover Seder), texts upon the Passion of Jesus, and some impressive accounts of his miracles and teachings. So it's the liturgical role of the gospels that I'm now talking about; from the earliest times, these texts were meant to be read during Church services.
 
That's assuming the apostles were real people.

That's a big assumption, as they read more like literary tropes than real people.

What's more likely is that a variety of minor proto-christian cults mixed and matched until an explosively successful combination was achieved.
 
The apostles

And the names of the twelve Apostles are these : The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, James, the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean and Judas Iscariot who also betrayed him.

Jude brother of James is mentioned only in Acts 1:13.
Simon the Cananean is identified as Simon Zelotes in Acts 1:13.
Bartholomew, Matthew the publican, James son of Alpheus, Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean and Jude brother of James are not mentioned in gJohn.

Matthias is another name.

I agree with you, Sarpedon, that these men have very ordinary names. Moreover, the Catholic Encyclopedy gives them a lot of success, with miracles included, and often, the death of a martyr, which is normal for a future saint.
 
Waiting for the Apocalypse

As long as the first christians waited for the Apocalypse and the come-back of the Lord Jesus, they did not need a full gospel.
 
My argument was not that they have ordinary names, but that they function as stock characters in a work of fiction.

Generally, they are not differentiated; the gospels repeatedly say 'the disciples did this, the disciples did that.' etc.

They behave according to the needs of the plot, rather than any internal character logic. Peter is the everyman dumb guy who asks the stupid questions so that Jesus can explain as if to someone who doesn't know anything (a common character in books and movies): Judas betrays jesus because someone had to: Thomas doubts Jesus' resurrection, despite having witnessed Jesus resurrecting Lazarus.
And several of the disciples have nothing at all to do, they are there only to round out the magic number 12 and get martyred in various ways.

Much like the 12 non-Thorin dwarves in the Hobbit. A few are differentiated: Balin the old one with sharp eyes, Kili and Fili, the youngest and most agile, Dori, who was a decent fellow, and Bombur, who was fat. These are differentiated only as necessary to serve the plot. The others are empty ciphers.
 
As long as the first christians waited for the Apocalypse and the come-back of the Lord Jesus, they did not need a full gospel.

Yes, why write things down for posterity if you think the world will end very soon? At most, the faithful would need some written instructions on the proper way to baptise, the eucharist etc, such as can be found in the Didache.
 
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