An infinite universe?

[steve_bank]

Back to yet another derail on infinity.

Yup, looks like it. The problem this time, however, is in his decree that something must be measurable to be real. The proof of such a decree may be amusing if he would offer one.

If it is real it is theoretically measurable. There is a way to measure it.

You cannot measure an infinite line.

Are you somebody's AI project and is this a Turing Test?

 

[skepticalbip]

If it is real it is theoretically measurable. There is a way to measure it.

You cannot measure an infinite line.

Are you somebody's AI project and is this a Turing Test?

Are you saying that it failed the Turing Test?

 

[untermensche]

It is definitional.

An infinite line is a line that has no end point.

Something with no end point cannot be measured. Not even in theory.

Saying space is finite is not claiming to know what is beyond boundaries that can't be approached.

The equator is a line that has no end point.

That's not as significant a bar to either existence or measurement as you appear to think.

A circle has a fixed circumference. It can be measured.

It is not infinite.

But an infinite line has nothing that is fixed. It cannot be measured in any way.

 

[untermensche]

If it is real it is theoretically measurable. There is a way to measure it.

You cannot measure an infinite line.

Are you somebody's AI project and is this a Turing Test?

You have never dealt with a real infinity.

There is no such thing.

Infinity is an imaginary concept, like god.

You can make up some fantastic imaginary features and if you stick with them then the concept is defined.

But it is never real.

 

[SLD]

I’ve heard this before. But what confuses me is how did the universe evolve from a very small, subatomic size to an infinite one? At what point did it become infinite in size? That seems to make no sense. I realize there’s a multiverse, but they are different universes, unconnected to ours was always my understanding. The idea that the universe is infinite would effectively destroy the Big Bang model and return us to Hoyle’s steady state model.

 

[skepticalbip]

I’ve heard this before. But what confuses me is how did the universe evolve from a very small, subatomic size to an infinite one? At what point did it become infinite in size? That seems to make no sense. I realize there’s a multiverse, but they are different universes, unconnected to ours was always my understanding. The idea that the universe is infinite would effectively destroy the Big Bang model and return us to Hoyle’s steady state model.

The model you are talking about is not flat, open Euclidean space. It would be riemannian space and you are imagining seeing it from outside the universe and, I assume, imagining yourself in Euclidean space. From inside the universe, it would be seen as infinite even at the 'beginning' but, as it is folded tight in on itself, extremely dense. Expansion is a decreasing of the density of the universe but it, from inside the universe, would be seen as infinite from the 'beginning' (unbelievably dense) until today (sparse) and into the future (even more sparse).

Your position that you assume to be seeing the universe is outside the universe you are imagining to be watching. Is there such a thing as "outside the Universe"? Or are you imagining something impossible and that is what is causing the confusion?

I blame media pop-sci programming where some 'scientist' tries to explain science in analogies (in many cases, poor ones) that they think will convey the idea to an audience that is basically scientifically illiterate.

 

[steve_bank]

If it is real it is theoretically measurable. There is a way to measure it.

You cannot measure an infinite line.

Are you somebody's AI project and is this a Turing Test?

You have never dealt with a real infinity.

There is no such thing.

Infinity is an imaginary concept, like god.

You can make up some fantastic imaginary features and if you stick with them then the concept is defined.

But it is never real.

Never sad a 'real' infinity.

In the old car ignition systems what happens when you put a current through an inductor and then break the circuit?
Phenomena can try to go to infinity but never get there. Understand,? A yes no question.

Again, if as you say infinities by definition are not measurable and so do not exists, does that mean an finite universe can not exisr?

 

[steve_bank]

I have the same opinion of pop sci.

 

[untermensche]

You have never dealt with a real infinity.

There is no such thing.

Infinity is an imaginary concept, like god.

You can make up some fantastic imaginary features and if you stick with them then the concept is defined.

But it is never real.

Never sad a 'real' infinity.

In the old car ignition systems what happens when you put a current through an inductor and then break the circuit?
Phenomena can try to go to infinity but never get there. Understand,? A yes no question.

Again, if as you say infinities by definition are not measurable and so do not exists, does that mean an finite universe can not exisr?

I am talking about a real infinity. What do you think an infinite length of the universe would be?

Imaginary?

If so, fine. The imaginary length of the universe is infinite.

 

[steve_bank]

You have never dealt with a real infinity.

There is no such thing.

Infinity is an imaginary concept, like god.

You can make up some fantastic imaginary features and if you stick with them then the concept is defined.

But it is never real.

Never sad a 'real' infinity.

In the old car ignition systems what happens when you put a current through an inductor and then break the circuit?
Phenomena can try to go to infinity but never get there. Understand,? A yes no question.

Again, if as you say infinities by definition are not measurable and so do not exists, does that mean an finite universe can not exisr?

I am talking about a real infinity. What do you think an infinite length of the universe would be?

Imaginary?

If so, fine. The imaginary length of the universe is infinite.

I was a pragmatic engineer. If I could not find a way to make practical use something I quickly got bored with it.

Infinities is a useful concept that has practial value in some areas,

That is an oxymoron....the conundrum I presented you with. The word infinity is a substute for 'not quntifiable with finte numbers. Simple.

In an infinite universe there are no extents or bounds hence it is unmeasurable IOW infinite. There are no paradoxes or conundrums . Applying the word infinite is a definition or desciption.

The last word is yours.

 

[fromderinside]

gurgle

 

[untermensche]

The word infinity is a substute for 'not quntifiable with finte numbers.

That may be an engineer's laziness but it isn't the truth.

 

[steve_bank]

The word infinity is a substute for 'not quntifiable with finte numbers.

That may be an engineer's laziness but it isn't the truth.

"You want the truth?...You can't handle the truth!".

 

[untermensche]

The truth is engineers don't need the truth.

They just need close enough to work.