Ancient China and Walled Cities

[Rhea]

I was browsing this today ( a result of a post in general religion and the typical christian claim of morals, which led to the thoughts of the greek philosophers, which led to the question of how much earlier the chinese philosophers were, which led to the question of what a “city” was back then, and ultimately how early were things called “cities” in existence... but I digress,)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlitou_culture

Anyway, the article talks about the Erlitou bronze age urban society.
And it’s very interesting. I welcome thought.

But what struck the very next question in my head was about those nearby walled cities that were built and wondering if the walles were against people or animals.

What do you think?
About the walls, or about the earliest urban centers?

 

[bigfield]

But what struck the very next question in my head was about those nearby walled cities that were built and wondering if the walles were against people or animals.

What do you think?
About the walls, or about the earliest urban centers?

Early walls were built around palaces and temples rather than dwellings, so it's likely that the walls were intended to keep people out (or in).

When humans want to control animals, we tend to build fences instead of fortified walls, and we sleep in walled tents or buildings.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I was browsing this today ( a result of a post in general religion and the typical christian claim of morals, which led to the thoughts of the greek philosophers, which led to the question of how much earlier the chinese philosophers were, which led to the question of what a “city” was back then, and ultimately how early were things called “cities” in existence... but I digress,)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlitou_culture

Anyway, the article talks about the Erlitou bronze age urban society.
And it’s very interesting. I welcome thought.

But what struck the very next question in my head was about those nearby walled cities that were built and wondering if the walles were against people or animals.

What do you think?
About the walls, or about the earliest urban centers?

Hunter/gatherers lived in a state of constant war and conflict between groups. Any stranger was fair game and they'd take any opportunity to raid each other. Since a fixed position is at a disadvantage compared to a more mobile force, the first fixed settlements were by necessity designed as fortresses. Over time, as the farms expanded and the villages grew they could defend against the hunter/gather raiders through greater numbers, ie sheer force. But it took thousands of years. Up until then they needed walls.

Catal Huyk, the world's first settlement has, as only entrence to their houses, a hole in the roof, only accessible by ladder. That should tell you how much of a problem raiding was.

 

[rousseau]

I was browsing this today ( a result of a post in general religion and the typical christian claim of morals, which led to the thoughts of the greek philosophers, which led to the question of how much earlier the chinese philosophers were, which led to the question of what a “city” was back then, and ultimately how early were things called “cities” in existence... but I digress,)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlitou_culture

Anyway, the article talks about the Erlitou bronze age urban society.
And it’s very interesting. I welcome thought.

But what struck the very next question in my head was about those nearby walled cities that were built and wondering if the walles were against people or animals.

What do you think?
About the walls, or about the earliest urban centers?

Hunter/gatherers lived in a state of constant war and conflict between groups. Any stranger was fair game and they'd take any opportunity to raid each other. Since a fixed position is at a disadvantage compared to a more mobile force, the first fixed settlements were by necessity designed as fortresses. Over time, as the farms expanded and the villages grew they could defend against the hunter/gather raiders through greater numbers, ie sheer force. But it took thousands of years. Up until then they needed walls.

Catal Huyk, the world's first settlement has, as only entrence to their houses, a hole in the roof, only accessible by ladder. That should tell you how much of a problem raiding was.

They even named a whole era in Ancient China the warring states period.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I was browsing this today ( a result of a post in general religion and the typical christian claim of morals, which led to the thoughts of the greek philosophers, which led to the question of how much earlier the chinese philosophers were, which led to the question of what a “city” was back then, and ultimately how early were things called “cities” in existence... but I digress,)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlitou_culture

Anyway, the article talks about the Erlitou bronze age urban society.
And it’s very interesting. I welcome thought.

But what struck the very next question in my head was about those nearby walled cities that were built and wondering if the walles were against people or animals.

What do you think?
About the walls, or about the earliest urban centers?

Hunter/gatherers lived in a state of constant war and conflict between groups. Any stranger was fair game and they'd take any opportunity to raid each other. Since a fixed position is at a disadvantage compared to a more mobile force, the first fixed settlements were by necessity designed as fortresses. Over time, as the farms expanded and the villages grew they could defend against the hunter/gather raiders through greater numbers, ie sheer force. But it took thousands of years. Up until then they needed walls.

Catal Huyk, the world's first settlement has, as only entrence to their houses, a hole in the roof, only accessible by ladder. That should tell you how much of a problem raiding was.

They even named a whole era in Ancient China the warring states period.

I think you've got your timeline screwed up. This came much much later. The period we're talking about is before there were any identifiable states, ie unions between cities. 10 000 - 9 500 BC. The later we go the less walls we see. A development that continued right into modern times. The earliest cities had absolutely massive walls. It was the single greatest building works and investment any city had.

 

[rousseau]

They even named a whole era in Ancient China the warring states period.

I think you've got your timeline screwed up. This came much much later. The period we're talking about is before there were any identifiable states, ie unions between cities. 10 000 - 9 500 BC. The later we go the less walls we see. A development that continued right into modern times. The earliest cities had absolutely massive walls. It was the single greatest building works and investment any city had.

Oh I know I've got the period off, I was just speaking to warfare in the Ancient period. People posed a much greater threat than animals.

 

[bilby]

Animals were typically prevented from going where they were not wanted by ditches, hurdles and fences, at least in European pre-history.

Walls were for keeping out other humans. City and town walls doubly so. Although the reason for keeping people out wasn't always defensive - a lot of walls were about tax, not war.

If you prohibit markets outside the town, and have a wall with guarded gates, it's suddenly very difficult for the peasants to avoid paying duties, tithes or taxes.

To a great extent, walls such as Hadrian's and Antoninus's in northern Britain were about controlling trade as much as they were about preventing raids or invasions.

Things may well have been somewhat different in China, but I am not sufficiently knowledgeable about oriental history to say for sure what the primary purposes of their walls were. I wouldn't be surprised if the same applied there as in Europe.

 

[Sarpedon]

The same chinese character means both "city" and "wall." OF course, this association was quite common in the ancient world. The Egyptian Hieroglyph for 'City' pretty clearly shows a wall. Ancient middle eastern cities were uniformly walled.

Now, the very ancient cities (as we would call them today) of the Harrappan civilization were NOT walled. Nor was Teotihuacan, the prototype MesoAmerican city. These seem atypical.

European cities generally had defensive works all the way up into the 19th Century. At about the time of the industrial revolution, people decided they were more trouble than they were worth, as a barrier to urbanization, and tore them down.

Interestingly, many Chinese walled cities remained into the Twentieth century, and were even used as defenses against the Japanese invasion in World War II.

 

[DrZoidberg]

European cities generally had defensive works all the way up into the 19th Century. At about the time of the industrial revolution, people decided they were more trouble than they were worth, as a barrier to urbanization, and tore them down.

That wasn't why they disappeared. It was because of the invention of the cannon. There's no point having a wall if the enemy can cut through it like butter. The European 19'th century was extremely violent. Almost constant civil unrest and minor wars everywhere. Or big wars. If they could they would have built something to keep the enemy out.

 

[bilby]

European cities generally had defensive works all the way up into the 19th Century. At about the time of the industrial revolution, people decided they were more trouble than they were worth, as a barrier to urbanization, and tore them down.

That wasn't why they disappeared. It was because of the invention of the cannon. There's no point having a wall if the enemy can cut through it like butter. The European 19'th century was extremely violent. Almost constant civil unrest and minor wars everywhere. Or big wars. If they could they would have built something to keep the enemy out.

Yup, vertical walls became valueless with the introduction of artillery. But many towns were fortified in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries with big berms and glacis slopes, in the classic 'star fort' or 'bastion fort' plan.

These didn't become entirely obsolete until WWII, when the doctrines of mobile warfare made fixed defenses less useful; They were however very expensive in both money and land, so were less common than earlier styles of city defences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort

 

[Sarpedon]

I said fortifications, a category that includes both masonry walls and modern earthworks. After the introduction of the cannon, medieval city walls were replaced with large scale earthworks for the cannon age. These huge structures persisted into the 19th century, growing ever larger as cannon technology improved, until they were much larger than the cities they protected and were a serious barrier to economic activity. Vienna was a prime example. If you go to Google Earth, you can clearly see the old city, and the area of land that was used up for fortifications, and later growth of the city once they had been removed. The large park called "Stadtpark" was built entirely in the depth of what was the fortifications. You can trace the same line all the way around the city, and several streets trace the outlines of the vast triangular bastions.

China was a different case, as their city walls tended to be massive earthworks all the way from ancient times. Cannons didn't develop very far in China, because they were utterly ineffective against the massive walls. Only in Europe, where relatively small and flimsy castles were the rule, did the cannon have a chance to evolve.

 

[steve_bank]

Saw a show on the history of walled cities and the see saw completion of bigger assault weapons It was a technological arms race.