Another Mundane Observation - Birds and Black Raspberries

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The berries I grow are mulberries, blueberries, strawberries, blackberries and black raspberries. Except for the blackberries and black raspberries the birds get just about everything unless I exclude them using netting. This is even true for growing peas. They just love the plants, pods and leaves both, and will devour them as soon as they emerge from the ground. So I've always wondered about why the birds don't destroy the black raspberries - and Blackberries - with the same gusto.

Lately I've seen where the birds will perch on a support wire and peck at the nearby fruit, or go after the fruit near the ground. They love the fruit but they don't land on the plants. So it's not that they don't like the berries or cannot find them.

What is now obvious is that they are deterred by the thorns which cover the plants. That may seem like a "duh" moment but now it makes sense. As a kid they left the red raspberries alone and we picked blackberries in the woods and fields by the gallons. But they decimated the other fruit crops, even pecking holes in ripe apples and plums. I was going to order some of those thornless berry plants but not now. I think the birds would just have a field day.

 

[Malintent]

One would think that thorns evolved to deter mammals from trashing the plant, but allow birds to delicately pluck the fruit and spread the seeds... unless those berries do best propagating without birds "helping", it seems an evolutionary disadvantage to keep them away.

 

[ronburgundy]

One would think that thorns evolved to deter mammals from trashing the plant, but allow birds to delicately pluck the fruit and spread the seeds... unless those berries do best propagating without birds "helping", it seems an evolutionary disadvantage to keep them away.

Birds and other mammals can eat the berries that fall to the ground. The thorns protect the leaves and flowers of the plant from being eaten (deer like them), which would hinder the plants fruiting and thus spreading of its seeds.

Also, blackberry bushes often grow in bad sandy soil where other plants can't. Thus, they are often the only fruiting plant in the area. In that situation, birds and other animals probably do brave the thorns out of desperation. When other easier to get fruit is available, they don't bother.

 

[J842P]

I don't think I've ever tried black raspberries, although I might have (I've tried lots of similar fruit but only know them by their Spanish - rather, Guatemalan, names). Do they taste distinct from raspberries and blackberries? I love blackberries. I think they are my favorite.

 

[ryan]

Just throwing another idea out there, I have never seen a black raspberry either, but I know some blackberries have large hard seeds that hurt my teeth.

 

[Malintent]

Just throwing another idea out there, I have never seen a black raspberry either, but I know some blackberries have large hard seeds that hurt my teeth.

.. in hopes you will swallow them whole and poop them out in a nice spot for a new plant to grow

 

[ronburgundy]

I don't think I've ever tried black raspberries, although I might have (I've tried lots of similar fruit but only know them by their Spanish - rather, Guatemalan, names). Do they taste distinct from raspberries and blackberries? I love blackberries. I think they are my favorite.

Black Raspberries are amazing. They are by far my favorite berry or fruit generally. I bet most people haven't had them because they are rarely available commercially. All the fresh one's I have had, I picked myself. They are more like red raspberries in size and texture. Raspberries come clean off their stem/core and thus are hollow caps. Blackberries have the stem/core inside them. They are larger and solid, with a closed butt end. They have bigger seeds. I like black raspberries more than black berries, because of smaller seeds, and their more intense but less sweet flavor.

This pic shows blackberries on the left and black raspberries on the right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One would think that thorns evolved to deter mammals from trashing the plant, but allow birds to delicately pluck the fruit and spread the seeds... unless those berries do best propagating without birds "helping", it seems an evolutionary disadvantage to keep them away.

Many permanent type crops that we grow are grafted at the main trunk, what we eat and the roots are separate species. Such plants will not reproduce properly from seed. (And I've even seen annuals that are grafted--a tomato plant on top, a potato plant underneath. At the end of the growing season you dig up the "tomato" plant and get potatoes. Somehow I suspect the yield is inferior to plants with only one job.)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

One would think that thorns evolved to deter mammals from trashing the plant, but allow birds to delicately pluck the fruit and spread the seeds... unless those berries do best propagating without birds "helping", it seems an evolutionary disadvantage to keep them away.

Blackberries and raspberries spread by sending out roots from which new plants emerge. As so they can spread very quickly and need annual care to keep them in check. Also, the canes will fall over and easily root where the tip touches the ground so get trimmed back every year. I've gotten many new plants from tip rooting.

Raspberry thorns are less daunting than blackberries and the seeds, as mentioned, are much smaller, smaller than a strawberry seed it seems. They're firmer than a red raspberry and pick the same way. I picked a few pounds today anyway. The fruit is usually pecked-up along the ground and wherever there is a post or supporting wire for a bird to stand or perch, but that's all.

 

[fromderinside]

Crows FU everything. They are opportunist nesters by laying eggs in other species nests, nest raiders for food, predator alerts and taunters, plant savages and general all around pests. We encourage moles and weasels to combat them. Usually works. Often see black feathers around after a weasel or mink has been about.

Aren't all berries you mention joedad, even blue berries, runner plants.

 

[Malintent]

Hey! Crows are awesome! They are extremely intelligent animals. I had a pet crow as a child (rescued as a baby from an approaching cat after falling from its nest). They can learn to mimic, and even speak. My crow (his name was Lucky), learned how to say "Hello", albeit with a crow accent.. "HUROW"!
He would get all excited when people were around.. and yell and scream for things he saw (anything shiny). All you had to do was ball up a small piece of aluminum foil and hand it to him. He would spend the rest of the day putting it in different places in his (huge) cage, and hop around looking at it from all possible angles... then moving it to another location until it was just in the right place for him.

 

[bilby]

I don't think I've ever tried black raspberries, although I might have (I've tried lots of similar fruit but only know them by their Spanish - rather, Guatemalan, names). Do they taste distinct from raspberries and blackberries? I love blackberries. I think they are my favorite.

Black Raspberries are amazing. They are by far my favorite berry or fruit generally. I bet most people haven't had them because they are rarely available commercially. All the fresh one's I have had, I picked myself. They are more like red raspberries in size and texture. Raspberries come clean off their stem/core and thus are hollow caps. Blackberries have the stem/core inside them. They are larger and solid, with a closed butt end. They have bigger seeds. I like black raspberries more than black berries, because of smaller seeds, and their more intense but less sweet flavor.

This pic shows blackberries on the left and black raspberries on the right.

My dad always said "Don't eat the red ones, they are red because they're still green"

 

[bilby]

Crows FU everything. They are opportunist nesters by laying eggs in other species nests, nest raiders for food, predator alerts and taunters, plant savages and general all around pests. We encourage moles and weasels to combat them. Usually works. Often see black feathers around after a weasel or mink has been about.

Aren't all berries you mention joedad, even blue berries, runner plants.

Humans FU everything too, eliminating any other species that even hints at being a possible competitor, killing a wide range of other species for food, and even eating the young and eggs, and destroying habitats on a vast scale.

In fact, almost every pest species I ever hear people whining about sees to be considered evil because they choose to follow similar strategies to those pursued by humans.

I know many greenies simply conclude that humans too are pests, and should be culled; But I lean towards the opposite viewpoint - if rats, crows, humans and other species are able to successfully exploit their niches to the exclusion of other species, then good luck to them. We will likely all be extinct in a few hundred million years anyway.

 

[fromderinside]

But I lean towards the opposite viewpoint - if rats, crows, humans and other species are able to successfully exploit their niches to the exclusion of other species, then good luck to them. We will likely all be extinct in a few hundred million years anyway.

Go to disagree here. All except humans take advantage of competitive advantage to the point of mutual extinction. I'm hopeful that humans using its capability to generate as well as destroy adds essential competitor benefits that lead to mutuality like has become the case with some bacteria. I certainly don't want to see us just become another virus.

As for extinction that is the way of thermodynamics, even a variety that maximizes use of available energy. I wonder if the last quark pair holds hands and go cumbyeya as they disappear.

 

[bilby]

But I lean towards the opposite viewpoint - if rats, crows, humans and other species are able to successfully exploit their niches to the exclusion of other species, then good luck to them. We will likely all be extinct in a few hundred million years anyway.

Go to disagree here. All except humans take advantage of competitive advantage to the point of mutual extinction.

Nonsense. All of these so-called 'pest' species are thriving. They are not near, nor are they moving towards, mutual extinction.

I'm hopeful that humans using its capability to generate as well as destroy adds essential competitor benefits that lead to mutuality like has become the case with some bacteria. I certainly don't want to see us just become another virus.

I agree with that - and would argue that it is already happening for all of the species I mentioned, including ours.

As for extinction that is the way of thermodynamics, even a variety that maximizes use of available energy. I wonder if the last quark pair holds hands and go cumbyeya as they disappear.

Nothing lasts forever. I'm not sure why that's a problem, particularly given that individual humans are ephemeral in comparison with the species as a whole. If my great^1000000-grandson turns out not to be human, or even Neve gets born at all, what matters it to me today?