Are Belief in God and Religion the same thing?

[bigfield]

You're the one who prays to nobody--how can we tell whether you're serious or not?

You don't have to PRAY TO, you can pray about. And as a cultural christian I like the language of church and religion. I know some people here don't but I do. But then again I was raised in a predominately black church with the really good music and some really funny memories.

Fair enough--you're not the first Christian to obey the forms without believing the bunkum.

If this is what you mean by religion without belief in God, then it is really nothing more than 'playing along' because you like the culture.

Do you adhere to Christian beliefs besides the existence of God? Do you believe that it is a moral crime to disobey any of the ten commandments?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You don't have to PRAY TO, you can pray about. And as a cultural christian I like the language of church and religion. I know some people here don't but I do. But then again I was raised in a predominately black church with the really good music and some really funny memories.

Fair enough--you're not the first Christian to obey the forms without believing the bunkum.

If this is what you mean by religion without belief in God, then it is really nothing more than 'playing along' because you like the culture.

Do you adhere to Christian beliefs besides the existence of God? Do you believe that it is a moral crime to disobey any of the ten commandments?

I like Christmas. I think the ten commandments are adorable and make exquisite door stops. I ALWAYS buy a new dress, hat, gloves and shoes for Easter. I believe I am my brother's keeper. I believe the moneychangers should be driven from the temple (and taxing churches is the best way to that). I believe we do live in a time of false prophets and that all generations have lived in such times. I believe that sometimes it is best to wrestle with our angels and make peace with our demons. I believe that providence has been made, that is to say, we have what we need to sustain us, but we never will so long as we allow Pharaoh to hold grain for the gods while the multitudes starve in Goshen. I believe certain things should be held as sacred, not because god said so, but because we say so. I cry at weddings, namings, and funerals and I think them necessary to mark the passing of our communal lives. I believe that weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

I believe quite a few things.

Mine is a devotion of Continuous Revelation, Consensual Relationship, Just Community, Social Agency, and Hope.

 

[bigfield]

Fair enough--you're not the first Christian to obey the forms without believing the bunkum.

If this is what you mean by religion without belief in God, then it is really nothing more than 'playing along' because you like the culture.

Do you adhere to Christian beliefs besides the existence of God? Do you believe that it is a moral crime to disobey any of the ten commandments?

I like Christmas. I think the ten commandments are adorable and make exquisite door stops. I ALWAYS buy a new dress, hat, gloves and shoes for Easter. I believe I am my brother's keeper. I believe the moneychangers should be driven from the temple (and taxing churches is the best way to that). I believe we do live in a time of false prophets and that all generations have lived in such times. I believe that sometimes it is best to wrestle with our angels and make peace with our demons. I believe that providence has been made, that is to say, we have what we need to sustain us, but we never will so long as we allow Pharaoh to hold grain for the gods while the multitudes starve in Goshen. I believe certain things should be held as sacred, not because god said so, but because we say so. I cry at weddings, namings, and funerals and I think them necessary to mark the passing of our communal lives. I believe that weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

I believe quite a few things.

Mine is a devotion of Continuous Revelation, Consensual Relationship, Just Community, Social Agency, and Hope.

Thanks for the elaboration.

I believe certain things should be held as sacred, not because god said so, but because we say so.

Do you believe anything because it is part of Christian beliefs, or do your worldview and moral code just happen have some overlap with Christian beliefs?

I see a pattern in your listed Christian beliefs: you accept the parts of Christianity that have merit even to a secular humanist, and have not listed any of the beliefs that are supported only by appeals to authority.

So I suspect you are a freethinker who is religious in gesture only.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I like Christmas. I think the ten commandments are adorable and make exquisite door stops. I ALWAYS buy a new dress, hat, gloves and shoes for Easter. I believe I am my brother's keeper. I believe the moneychangers should be driven from the temple (and taxing churches is the best way to that). I believe we do live in a time of false prophets and that all generations have lived in such times. I believe that sometimes it is best to wrestle with our angels and make peace with our demons. I believe that providence has been made, that is to say, we have what we need to sustain us, but we never will so long as we allow Pharaoh to hold grain for the gods while the multitudes starve in Goshen. I believe certain things should be held as sacred, not because god said so, but because we say so. I cry at weddings, namings, and funerals and I think them necessary to mark the passing of our communal lives. I believe that weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

I believe quite a few things.

Mine is a devotion of Continuous Revelation, Consensual Relationship, Just Community, Social Agency, and Hope.

Thanks for the elaboration.

I believe certain things should be held as sacred, not because god said so, but because we say so.

Do you believe anything because it is part of Christian beliefs, or do your worldview and moral code just happen have some overlap with Christian beliefs?

I see a pattern in your listed Christian beliefs: you accept the parts of Christianity that have merit even to a secular humanist, and have not listed any of the beliefs that are supported only by appeals to authority.

So I suspect you are a freethinker who is religious in gesture only.

Begging your pardon, but you would suspect wrong . While I am a free thinker that would not suppose that I have lost all my upbringing, that I do not see the world through christian metaphor, narrative and iconography, and that I do not possess a morality deeply rooted in the teachings I learned in the Missionary Baptist Church.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Isn't his what deism falls under?

Can't deism be a creator, where religion is dogma?

That depends.

Many deists do believe in a god, they just don't any claims about said god beyond "he/she/it created the universe."

That's what I meant. Deism is more about believing a creator exists, but there isn't much more about it than that. Religion itself is just a bunch of hogwash dogma.

Saying you believe that there needs to be creator is one type of claim, and is at least understandable based on the level of jacksquat we know about the universe. Saying said Creator told someone that eating toast on Wednesday is a sin is an entirely different level of claim and ridiculous.

 

[braces_for_impact]

If eating toast is a sin, then it will be convenient that hell has flames.

 

[ronburgundy]

Only by making the terms religion and God so vague as to be largely meaningless, can they be separated.

There is no such thing as a Christian atheist, unless at least one of those words is stripped of its common usage meaning. Also, there is plenty of argument that Taoism, Buddhism and other non-theistic "religions" are not in fact "religions", unless the term is meant to mean nothing more than a way of thinking or a general orientation toward life, which makes it a word hardly ever worth using since it conveys almost nothing and is more likely to mislead than inform about the thing one is trying to reference.

The online etymology dictionary used historical references to terms and its definition of religion is rife with references to gods, divine powers, worship, etc..

What if the way of thinking or general orientation toward life isn’t so vague as you make it sound, but is replete with practices, devotions, rites, celebrations, symbols and stories that are very detailed and very specific so that the tradition being practiced can’t be mistaken as Jewish or Buddhist or anything other than Christian... and yet God is not a certainty for them?

If they don't actually believe in God and the divinity of Jesus, then they are not sincerely engaged in any of those practices that all derive their religious meaning from their reference to God. Such a person is equivalent to an actor or spy faking a role, or co-opting superficial actions for some other purpose devoid of their theological meaning that made them part of that religion. A NYC housewife in Yoga class is not a Hindu as a result. Wearing a white lab coat and a stethoscope and wandering around a hospital doesn't make you a medical doctor.

Also it might depend on in what way the 'Christian atheist' is atheist. Is a person an atheist who accepts that God is a meaningful metaphor to them, or Christ an exemplar par excellence to emulate, and not externally existing entities? Maybe they believe in Jesus but he was a historical person, or maybe they don't but he's still an ideal model anyway. If the answer to “Do you believe in god?” is “Not in the way you mean it, not as a supernatural anthropomorphic being” then are they an agnostic atheist or a variant of god-believer?

They are an atheist. A theist is precisely someone that believes in the reality of God that is not merely a methaphor and exists independent of and prior to any human conception of him. Clearly the concept of God exists. Anyone that doesn't believe that the concept of God exists is literally insane. Thus, all remotely sane persons either believe that all God concepts are metaphorical or that at least some are literal and reflect awareness of an entity that exist outside the mind in the same way that human concepts of chairs reflects awareness of an external entity. Only the latter are theists, and Christianity is a particular sub-set of theism, which also requires that the God you think is non-metaphorically real is the God described in the OT and NT, and that Jesus's birth and actions are also non-Metaphorical and he had supernatural divinity that gave him special access to the Will of that God in a way no human ever has. If Jesus just an upstanding chap, then he wouldn't be distinct and special enough in your worldview to categorize you in direct reference to him. If would be as absurd as saying that anyone who thinks Bilbo Baggins was morally upstanding is a Bibloian.

Is every person who thinks that Dragons and Unicorns are fiction but useful metaphors a Dragonist or Unicornist?

And anyway, just how necessary is Jehovah to Christianity? What if Jehovah seemed kind of antediluvian to the Christian and it was specifically 'the Christ' as an Ideal Model, an exemplar par excellence, that deserved devoted attention?

Christ believed in non-metaphorical literal Jehovah of the OT, and in all his actions and commands of the OT. Thus, it is impossible to devote to Christ as an example to the degree that would warrant a label of Christian, without sharing Christs belief in Jehovah and everything in the OT. If you are just using the word Jesus or Christ to slap onto whatever beliefs and ethics you prefer, without regard to what the Bible and its Jehovah had to say, then you are no more a Christian than a person who says they are a dog is a dog. It makes the word Christian devoid of any meaning, since it represents nothing more than "I value whatever I value", which is true of all people.

 

[ronburgundy]

Thanks for the elaboration.

I believe certain things should be held as sacred, not because god said so, but because we say so.

Do you believe anything because it is part of Christian beliefs, or do your worldview and moral code just happen have some overlap with Christian beliefs?

I see a pattern in your listed Christian beliefs: you accept the parts of Christianity that have merit even to a secular humanist, and have not listed any of the beliefs that are supported only by appeals to authority.

So I suspect you are a freethinker who is religious in gesture only.

Begging your pardon, but you would suspect wrong . While I am a free thinker that would not suppose that I have lost all my upbringing, that I do not see the world through christian metaphor, narrative and iconography, and that I do not possess a morality deeply rooted in the teachings I learned in the Missionary Baptist Church.

IF they are metaphors to you, then you are not a Christian any more than you are a Skywalkerian due to being influenced by Star Wars metaphors, and infinite other "ian" and "ist" for every other story (fiction or non) that influenced how you view the world.

 

[ronburgundy]

If you don't believe in an actual non-metaphorical deity that answers prayers and imbues things with sacredness outside of anything humans want or feel, then to say you "pray" or hold things "sacred" is as meaningful and accurate as to say "my cat prays and holds things sacred". Thus, if that is sufficient to be "religious", then all humans and most mammals are equally "religious", making all those terms vacuous.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

If you don't believe in an actual non-metaphorical deity that answers prayers and imbues things with sacredness outside of anything humans want or feel, then to say you "pray" or hold things "sacred" is as meaningful and accurate as to say "my cat prays and holds things sacred". Thus, if that is sufficient to be "religious", then all humans and most mammals are equally "religious", making all those terms vacuous.

And bless you too Ron.

 

[Horatio Parker]

If you don't believe in an actual non-metaphorical deity that answers prayers and imbues things with sacredness outside of anything humans want or feel, then to say you "pray" or hold things "sacred" is as meaningful and accurate as to say "my cat prays and holds things sacred". Thus, if that is sufficient to be "religious", then all humans and most mammals are equally "religious", making all those terms vacuous.

Youre right in one respect: the concept of God is indisputable, and in that sense God exists. The problem is that you see such an existence as trivial. Dragons and hobbits have just as much reality - except they don't because people don't imbue them with much power. As symbols, they're limited. God is much more powerful, a far richer symbol than unicorns or anything else you can dream up.