Are US policy makers actually TRYING to start WW III?

[angelo]

Would be different result for sure were they both to run for chancellor. The grass is always greener as they say.

 

[tupac chopra]

Here is who the USA supports in the Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKuDzXAgdf4

 

[angelo]

Jeezus, that's scary! Reminds of the Nazi marches through Berlin.

 

[laughing dog]

Are you saying this doesn't happen?

Until the notion of a "secret war" is spelled out, it is not possible to say. Anyone can give a number for "secret wars" and given the lack of definition, it is not possible to observe whether that estimate is accurate or not.

Hang on are you arguing that there are no 'secret wars" or that the number 124 is too high? I already discounted that number, if you read my post.
My only claim was that is whatever the number, it would dwarf 15.

Since that number is unbelievable, it casts doubt on the entire claim. You are entitled to your beliefs, but your beliefs are not disinterested evidence. We don't know what Ellsberg or you mean by "secret wars", which means it is impossible to judge the accuracy of your claims.

In any event, you have shifted the goal posts from your original claim.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Considering the extensive media coverage of Chernobyl which certainly included CNN, I am not sure how anyone can claim that "CNN still does not know where Ukraine is".

I think it's not such a stretch to suggest that CIA learned about Ukraine only recently. CIA director recently visited Ukraine so he knows where it is now.

What evidence do you have that the CIA director did not know where Ukraine is prior to his recent visit in view of your stating " so he knows where it is now"? Considering that a search through the US State Dept.website will reveal a page dedicated to Ukraine covering several dated topics and reports, what is it that the US State Dept would have learned about Ukraine that the CIA would not have?

So this whole mess stems from the ignorance, that's the only explanation why US administration supported neo-nazi coup and why it was so surprised to learn that Crimea was actually populated by pro-russian russians and has always had boat loads of russian soldiers in there. CIA simply did not know that.

Related to my above and as you portray the CIA as ignorant and "learned about Ukraine only recently", do you have insights into all the intel data the CIA will gather as part of their FCI operations? The answer can only be "no, I do not".

Are you envisioning the CIA isolated from both domestic and foreign intel agencies? Are you not aware that since the failed CIA report on alleged WMD in Irak, US Congress impressed on the importance to have all FCI operations conducted by other federal agencies being shared in between them? Do you think that the CIA does not have access to intel data gathered by the French, British, etc...nations considered allies to the US?

Are you sure the CIA didn't know about WMD before the invasion of Iraq? ................http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/18/panorama-iraq-fresh-wmd-claims

The failed report was a direct reference to the alleged evidence of WMD in Irak, report the content of which was paraded by Colin Powell to the UN, content of which was paraded to the US Congress by the GWB Administration. The subsequent Senatorial Committee investigation concluded :

General conclusions on intelligence relating to Iraq's WMD and ties to terrorism[edit]
The report's first conclusion points to widespread flaws in the October 2002 NIE, and attributes those flaws to failure by analysts in the intelligence community:

Most of the major key judgments in the Intelligence Community’s October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), Iraq’s Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction, either overstated, or were not supported by, the underlying intelligence reporting. A series of failures, particularly in analytic trade craft, led to the mischaracterization of the intelligence.
Subsequent conclusions fault the intelligence community for failing to adequately explain to policymakers the uncertainties that underlay the NIE's conclusions, and for succumbing to "group think," in which the intelligence community adopted untested (and, in hindsight, unwarranted) assumptions about the extent of Iraq's WMD stockpiles and programs. The committee identified a failure to adequately supervise analysts and collectors, and a failure to develop human sources of intelligence (HUMINT) inside Iraq after the departure of international weapons inspectors in 1998. It also cited the post-9/11 environment as having led to an increase in the intensity with which policymakers review and question threat information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Report_on_Pre-war_Intelligence_on_Iraq

Added pressure on all intel agencies when another Congressional Inquiry grilled the FBI Director on the FBI failure to pay attention to a report anticipating a terrorist attack targeting major US landmarks prior to 9/11.

Both inquiries resulted in all US intel gathering agencies being pressured to share data which includes the CIA.

If you paid attention to the CONTEXT in which I brought up the "failed report", it was to point to the absurdity of the claim that the CIA "learned about Ukraine only recently". Even more absurd, the wording of this claim of "CIA director recently visited Ukraine so he knows where it is now".

 

[4321lynx]

If you paid attention to the CONTEXT in which I brought up the "failed report", it was to point to the absurdity of the claim that the CIA "learned about Ukraine only recently". Even more absurd, the wording of this claim of "CIA director recently visited Ukraine so he knows where it is now".

Entirely agree with you on the absurdity of these statements. The hyperbole and sarcastic tone of some of those statements serve only to cast doubt on the content in them, much of which is true.

However they are a good demonstration of the kind of attitude of people on both sides of the problem in the Ukraine: both are driven to words and actions by their feelings, convinced all their statements and views are 100% correct and the other side is 100% wrong, and also evil. The people of Eastern Europe, and I mean by this all ex-Soviet and all ex-Soviet-dependent countries, are so traumatized by their history in the 19th & 20th centuries, that most of them cannot think politically without a heavy overlay of feelings, sometimes to the exclusion of all logic and even decency. And some revel in this. They are like the Bourbons after the French Revolution who, it was said, "have learned nothing, and forgotten nothing."

Our pontificating here serves no real purpose and will be dismissed with derision. Facts, pacts, agreements, truth, logic,all count for nothing in a situation like this.

 

[Nexus]

John Kerry and Joe Biden sons appoint to board of Ukrainian energy firm.

Why would the company, which bills itself as Ukraine’s largest private gas producer, need such powerful friends in Washington?

The answer might be the company’s holdings in Ukraine. They include, according to the firm’s website, permits to explore in the Dnieper-Donets Basin in the country’s eastern regions, home to an armed pro-Russian separatist movement. They also include permits to explore in the Azov-Kuban Basin of the strategic Crimean peninsula, annexed earlier this year by Moscow.

Can we trust the US administration is acting on behalf of American interests regarding Ukraine? Or is this simply to enrich themselves?

“Hunter Biden and other members of the Biden family are obviously private citizens and where they work does not reflect an endorsement by the administration or by the Vice President or President,” said President Barack Obama’s press secretary, Jay Carney. “But I would refer you to the Vice President’s office.”

“Hunter Biden is a private citizen and a lawyer,” the vice president’s press secretary, Kendra Barkoff, said in a statement. “The vice president does not endorse any particular company and has no involvement with this company. For any additional questions, I refer you to Hunter’s office.”

Perhaps I'm too cynical and maybe these two men are truly the best candidates for the job. After all we have the administrations assurance that this is simply a coincidence and not an endorsement or because of personal involvement.

link

 

[Nexus]

I saw this in a comment.

How to decipher American media:

Terrorists: We hate them
Insurgents: We dislike them
Protesters: We don't care about them
Rebels: We like them
Freedom fighters: The Pentagon paid for this story

How to decipher Russian media:

Fascists: They are enemies of Russian interests
Pro-Western: We are talking about someone we do not care for
Partner: An Asian or Western country that is willing to cooperate
Allies: Byelorussians and Kazakhs
Freedom fighters: The Kremlin paid for this story

- - - Updated - - -

I saw this in a comment.

How to decipher American media:

Terrorists: We hate them
Insurgents: We dislike them
Protesters: We don't care about them
Rebels: We like them
Freedom fighters: The Pentagon paid for this story

How to decipher Russian media:

Fascists: They are enemies of Russian interests
Pro-Western: We are talking about someone we do not care for
Partner: An Asian or Western country that is willing to cooperate
Allies: Byelorussians and Kazakhs
Freedom fighters: The Kremlin paid for this story

 

[arkirk]

Leaders on both sides of this conflict had better start thinking straight. This is just another conflict driven by greedy people that has already killed significant numbers of people. If you are the only person killed in a conflict, that is significant to you. I am amazed that we still sit still and watch the IMF in action. This thing is a machine designed to destroy socialization in countries they have no real right to trouble.

Putin is playing the same type of game with these people in a huge, very disparate country. There should be generated a set of interests in Ukraine we could believe were Ukrainian interests...you know, things like food and water supplies, things like hospitals and roads and education systems. It is possible that a good social offering by a united group in the country would better serve the interests of the people of that region. What we are looking at today is eastern and western vultures circling a divided country.

The fact remains that Ukraine should not be either buried in debt by the West or obligated to Putin's thugs.

 

[boneyard bill]

John Kerry and Joe Biden sons appoint to board of Ukrainian energy firm.



Can we trust the US administration is acting on behalf of American interests regarding Ukraine? Or is this simply to enrich themselves?

“Hunter Biden and other members of the Biden family are obviously private citizens and where they work does not reflect an endorsement by the administration or by the Vice President or President,” said President Barack Obama’s press secretary, Jay Carney. “But I would refer you to the Vice President’s office.”

“Hunter Biden is a private citizen and a lawyer,” the vice president’s press secretary, Kendra Barkoff, said in a statement. “The vice president does not endorse any particular company and has no involvement with this company. For any additional questions, I refer you to Hunter’s office.”

Perhaps I'm too cynical and maybe these two men are truly the best candidates for the job. After all we have the administrations assurance that this is simply a coincidence and not an endorsement or because of personal involvement.

link

I don't think you're too cynical. In fact, I'm not sure that it's even possible to be too cynical about things like this. If this stinks to high heaven, it is only because these guys are more high profile than usual in that they are close relatives current politicians. The inter-connections between corporate interests, and especially Wall Street interests, and the US government agencies, including the CIA, are very, very extensive. Guys pass between the businesses and various cabinet agencies as well as in and out of Wall Street and Washington law firms with remarkable regularity. With the Biden and Kerry boys, the situation becomes literally, and not just figuratively, incestuous.

 

[tupac chopra]

Putin is playing the same type of game with these people in a huge, very disparate country.

What could/should Putin do differently?

 

[barbos]

John Kerry and Joe Biden sons appoint to board of Ukrainian energy firm.



Can we trust the US administration is acting on behalf of American interests regarding Ukraine? Or is this simply to enrich themselves?

“Hunter Biden and other members of the Biden family are obviously private citizens and where they work does not reflect an endorsement by the administration or by the Vice President or President,” said President Barack Obama’s press secretary, Jay Carney. “But I would refer you to the Vice President’s office.”

“Hunter Biden is a private citizen and a lawyer,” the vice president’s press secretary, Kendra Barkoff, said in a statement. “The vice president does not endorse any particular company and has no involvement with this company. For any additional questions, I refer you to Hunter’s office.”

Perhaps I'm too cynical and maybe these two men are truly the best candidates for the job. After all we have the administrations assurance that this is simply a coincidence and not an endorsement or because of personal involvement.

link

Well, I heard about Biden son only. It stinks pretty badly. Too bad Obama daughters are too young, otherwise they would be directors in Ukraine too.

Also in business news, Yatsenyuk the rabbit did not lose much time and signed another deal with Westinghouse for using their fuel assemblies in russian built reactors. Russians say these assemblies are not suitable for mixing with russian ones, Germans, Finns and Czechs agree, Finns and Czechs experimented with it and then refused to use Westinghouse fuel assemblies in their russian built reactors.

 

[angelo]

Meanwhile Putin has told Ukraine Russia demands up front payments for Russian gas supplies.

 

[barbos]

Meanwhile Putin has told Ukraine Russia demands up front payments for Russian gas supplies.

In full accordance with a contract I must add.

In other business news:
Canada refuses to sanction few high profile russian oil execs on the list (due to commercial interests)
Not to mention NASA says "we know nothing about Ukraine and want to use russian rockets and engines as usual"
And Putin has not reminded NATO "friends" about their project of transporting NATO (mostly american) shit out of Afghanistan through Russia
VISA/MasterCard are in danger of losing Russian market too.
Boeing apparently have some titanium parts (for B787 at least) manufactured in Russia, I did not know that.


Makes you wonder at which point these business people come to Obama and tell him to shove it.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Meanwhile Putin has told Ukraine Russia demands up front payments for Russian gas supplies.

* snip*
And Putin has not reminded NATO "friends" about their project of transporting NATO (mostly american) shit out of Afghanistan through Russia

From Sept. 2013,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...5e260a-1bde-11e3-b4fb-944b778463f5_story.html

Another alternative is to ship cargo by rail or truck across Afghanistan’s northern borders into Central Asia and Russia. But the Defense Department, after working for years to secure transit agreements with those countries, expects to move only 1 or 2 percent of its equipment along those corridors, according to a senior defense official who spoke on the condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the Pentagon.

The northern land routes, though cheaper than air cargo, take the longest and are more expensive than the Pakistan option, the official said

1 to 2% does not appear to be any major obstacle to not transit through Russia and instead using the option of via Pakistan. Since last September, has there been any changes in the projected logistics addressing the transport of material/equipment back to CONUS? It does not appear that the US is dependent on any cooperation from Putin to transport 1 to 2% of material/equipment since they have other alternatives.

 

[angelo]

If the relationship between the States and Russia deteriorates to such an extent, the other alternatives seem feesable, but doubt they will get any worse. Apart from sanctions I'm sure Obama doesn't want a war with Russia or vice versa.

 

[barbos]

Meanwhile Putin has told Ukraine Russia demands up front payments for Russian gas supplies.

* snip*
And Putin has not reminded NATO "friends" about their project of transporting NATO (mostly american) shit out of Afghanistan through Russia

From Sept. 2013,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...5e260a-1bde-11e3-b4fb-944b778463f5_story.html

Another alternative is to ship cargo by rail or truck across Afghanistan’s northern borders into Central Asia and Russia. But the Defense Department, after working for years to secure transit agreements with those countries, expects to move only 1 or 2 percent of its equipment along those corridors, according to a senior defense official who spoke on the condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the Pentagon.

The northern land routes, though cheaper than air cargo, take the longest and are more expensive than the Pakistan option, the official said

1 to 2% does not appear to be any major obstacle to not transit through Russia and instead using the option of via Pakistan. Since last September, has there been any changes in the projected logistics addressing the transport of material/equipment back to CONUS? It does not appear that the US is dependent on any cooperation from Putin to transport 1 to 2% of material/equipment since they have other alternatives.

If Pakistan or air was cheaper they would not ask Russia.
Pakistan is not only not cheaper it is not safer too.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Meanwhile Putin has told Ukraine Russia demands up front payments for Russian gas supplies.

* snip*
And Putin has not reminded NATO "friends" about their project of transporting NATO (mostly american) shit out of Afghanistan through Russia

From Sept. 2013,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...5e260a-1bde-11e3-b4fb-944b778463f5_story.html

Another alternative is to ship cargo by rail or truck across Afghanistan’s northern borders into Central Asia and Russia. But the Defense Department, after working for years to secure transit agreements with those countries, expects to move only 1 or 2 percent of its equipment along those corridors, according to a senior defense official who spoke on the condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the Pentagon.

The northern land routes, though cheaper than air cargo, take the longest and are more expensive than the Pakistan option, the official said

1 to 2% does not appear to be any major obstacle to not transit through Russia and instead using the option of via Pakistan. Since last September, has there been any changes in the projected logistics addressing the transport of material/equipment back to CONUS? It does not appear that the US is dependent on any cooperation from Putin to transport 1 to 2% of material/equipment since they have other alternatives.

If Pakistan or air was cheaper they would not ask Russia.
Pakistan is not only not cheaper it is not safer too.

Actually , the statement is :

The northern land routes, though cheaper than air cargo, take the longest and are more expensive than the Pakistan option, the official said

The motivation to choosing the Pakistan option is the shorter ground distance to get to a sea port such as Karachi and then load the material/equipment on cargo ships. Other point being that the request to Russia concerned ONLY 1 to 2% of material/equipment.

 

[barbos]

In theory Pakistan route was/is no brainer, in practice they would have to pay local "terrorists" for passage and deal with general reluctance of the population and their current government. That's why they looked into russian route. And depending on the state of the affair with Pakistan government russian route has been fluctuating from 0 to 100% important.
It is an option closing which will increase cost of Pakistan route.

In any case, I really see no point in discussing this particular thing, it was merely one item (probably not the most painful) in the list of "sanctions" Russia can put on US.
Cutting off Boeing can disrupt their production without much monetary loss to Russia. Cutting off gas can hurt Europe a lot but it will hurt Russia as well. Cutting off Visa/MasterCard can actually be good for Russia because they could build their own system.

 

[dystopian]

Cutting off Boeing can disrupt their production without much monetary loss to Russia.

Yes, I'm sure that the Russian government *intentionally* making thousands of Russian jobs disappear when the unemployment rate is already rising is going to go over well with the public. Just like I'm sure the russian airlines and leasing companies that currently collectively hold already partially paid orders for more than a 100 boeing airplanes are perfectly okay with just watching all that evaporate; I'm sure russia has a magic money system that allows them to lose all that money and material without monetary loss! And once Russia's kicked out Boeing, I'm sure that Russian companies won't mind if they also lose out on the many backlogged orders from Airbus too, so the government can kick them to the curb too.

Cutting off Visa/MasterCard can actually be good for Russia because they could build their own system.

Yes, just like Russia's economy can lose billions of dollars worth of airplanes without monetary loss, I'm sure it can also magically replace Visa/Mastercard in mere seconds so as to avoid serious financial repercussions; except for how they've said it would take them at least six months, the Russian system wouldn't be accepted abroad, and Russia's tourism sector would completely implode since nobody's going to visit a country where businesses are not allowed to accept foreign systems of payment. But yes, losing between one and four million jobs, the ability of Russians to pay abroad with ease, and 6% of total GDP is totally 'good' for Russia; so long as it gets a crappy alternative that nobody really wants to use instead!