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Are we running out of reasons to vote Democrat?

I'm not sure where those exit poll statistics come from, but this is what it says in Wikipedia.

In the 2000 presidential election in Florida, George W. Bush defeated Al Gore by 537 votes. Nader received 97,421 votes, which led to claims that he was responsible for Gore's defeat. Nader, both in his book Crashing the Party and on his website, states: "In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all."[18] (which would net a 13%, 12,665 votes, advantage for Gore over Bush.) When asked about claims of being a spoiler, Nader typically points to the controversial Supreme Court ruling that halted a Florida recount, Gore's loss in his home state of Tennessee, and the "quarter million Democrats who voted for Bush in Florida."[7]

It is Wikipedia, so maybe it is false, but it seems more accurate than the figures given in this thread.

Anyway, the real problem is first-past-the-post voting. Whenever Nader comes up in a discussion about being a spoiler, the next topic that should Succeed it should always be the need to change the voting system.

No, that's an accurate quote as far as I can tell, but it is taken out of context since he is talking about national exit poll figures, not individual state exit polls. The exit polls conducted by CNN for Florida give the aforementioned figures.
 
No, that's an accurate quote as far as I can tell, but it is taken out of context since he is talking about national exit poll figures, not individual state exit polls. The exit polls conducted by CNN for Florida give the aforementioned figures.

The Exit Polls will have been subject to the problems I describe above in 2000. I am sorry, but your claim that they prove your case is simply misinformed.

The number of persons actually interviewed by the exit pollers will have been very small, and the raw results are systematically distorted to conform to the reported results. Either of those could have introduced an error into the figures you cite.
 
No, that's an accurate quote as far as I can tell, but it is taken out of context since he is talking about national exit poll figures, not individual state exit polls. The exit polls conducted by CNN for Florida give the aforementioned figures.

The Exit Polls will have been subject to the problems I describe above in 2000. I am sorry, but your claim that they prove your case is simply misinformed.

The number of persons actually interviewed by the exit pollers will have been very small, and the raw results are systematically distorted to conform to the reported results. Either of those could have introduced an error into the figures you cite.

Perhaps, as much as I have admitted to, but, as I said before, that is certainly not a reason to accept that the election would have turned out differently, since there is even less evidence to support that theory.
 
No, that's an accurate quote as far as I can tell, but it is taken out of context since he is talking about national exit poll figures, not individual state exit polls. The exit polls conducted by CNN for Florida give the aforementioned figures.

The Exit Polls will have been subject to the problems I describe above in 2000. I am sorry, but your claim that they prove your case is simply misinformed.

The number of persons actually interviewed by the exit pollers will have been very small, and the raw results are systematically distorted to conform to the reported results. Either of those could have introduced an error into the figures you cite.

Perhaps, as much as I have admitted to, but, as I said before, that is certainly not a reason to accept that the election would have turned out differently, since there is even less evidence to support that theory.

Well, I'm sorry, but Bayesian inference says that my theory is more likely.

In order for "No Nader 2000" to have netted Gore the win, there has to have been a net of 537 voters from the pool of 97,488 actual Nader voters. So if just over half of 1% more of Nader's voters would have preferred to vote for Gore than Bush if these were their only options, it doesn't matter how many chose not to vote or picked any of the other real candidates. We have as alternate datapoint in that same Exit Poll at the National Level that 25% of Nader voters preferred Bush and 38% preferred Gore. (I still would not put much stock in this but the sample size as a whole will have been 20,000 so the number of Nader voters ought to have been ~ 600, which is a more reasonable sample.) Had Florida conformed to that nationwide average, Gore would be expected to net about 13,000, as noted above. In order for Nader's absence from the ticket to not cause a Gore victory in Florida, the set of Floridian Nader voters would have to be drastically different in their preferences from the nation as a whole.

We also know that Nader's positions were in general closer to Gore than to Bush.

Now for your (uncited) Exit Poll that indicated Floridian Nader voters actually slightly preferred Bush (and here in good faith is the 2008 CNN exit polling site and a detailed explanation on why Exit Polls can be highly unreliable).

The problem with it is that it is an extremely unlikely result given the NW Exit Poll cited immediately above and everything we know about the ideological preferences of persons voting for those three candidates.

Given the small size of the sample and the known reweighting, we have to make a choice based on that probability. Which is more likely, that Floridian Nader voters in 2000 were MUCH more conservative than the nation as a whole, or that a tiny sample has made a botched result?

Accepting your data as valid means we have to create a new theory to explain this incongruity in the apparent ideological preferences of Florida's 2000 Nader voters.

I can propose a pretty basic test. There is a Democrat who won the state of Florida in 2000, Senator Bill Nelson. He also massively outperformed Obama in 2012. He seems able to pick up poorer (White) voters in rural in suburban Florida to pad his margin and thus this by being Moderate. We know that a vast number of Bush voters voted for Nelson, it's a mathematical necessity. For the Exit Poll to be credible, we would expect there to be a correlation between Nader's vote share and Nelson's runahead over Gore, since that would show more conservatively or moderately minded voters taking Nader as a protest vote. If there is no correlation or an anti-correlation, then that makes the exit poll being useful much less likely.
 
No, that's an accurate quote as far as I can tell, but it is taken out of context since he is talking about national exit poll figures, not individual state exit polls. The exit polls conducted by CNN for Florida give the aforementioned figures.

The Exit Polls will have been subject to the problems I describe above in 2000. I am sorry, but your claim that they prove your case is simply misinformed.

The number of persons actually interviewed by the exit pollers will have been very small, and the raw results are systematically distorted to conform to the reported results. Either of those could have introduced an error into the figures you cite.

Perhaps, as much as I have admitted to, but, as I said before, that is certainly not a reason to accept that the election would have turned out differently, since there is even less evidence to support that theory.

Well, I'm sorry, but Bayesian inference says that my theory is more likely.

In order for "No Nader 2000" to have netted Gore the win, there has to have been a net of 537 voters from the pool of 97,488 actual Nader voters. So if just over half of 1% more of Nader's voters would have preferred to vote for Gore than Bush if these were their only options, it doesn't matter how many chose not to vote or picked any of the other real candidates. We have as alternate datapoint in that same Exit Poll at the National Level that 25% of Nader voters preferred Bush and 38% preferred Gore. (I still would not put much stock in this but the sample size as a whole will have been 20,000 so the number of Nader voters ought to have been ~ 600, which is a more reasonable sample.) Had Florida conformed to that nationwide average, Gore would be expected to net about 13,000, as noted above. In order for Nader's absence from the ticket to not cause a Gore victory in Florida, the set of Floridian Nader voters would have to be drastically different in their preferences from the nation as a whole.

We also know that Nader's positions were in general closer to Gore than to Bush.

Now for your (uncited) Exit Poll that indicated Floridian Nader voters actually slightly preferred Bush (and here in good faith is the 2008 CNN exit polling site and a detailed explanation on why Exit Polls can be highly unreliable).

The problem with it is that it is an extremely unlikely result given the NW Exit Poll cited immediately above and everything we know about the ideological preferences of persons voting for those three candidates.

Given the small size of the sample and the known reweighting, we have to make a choice based on that probability. Which is more likely, that Floridian Nader voters in 2000 were MUCH more conservative than the nation as a whole, or that a tiny sample has made a botched result?

Accepting your data as valid means we have to create a new theory to explain this incongruity in the apparent ideological preferences of Florida's 2000 Nader voters.

I can propose a pretty basic test. There is a Democrat who won the state of Florida in 2000, Senator Bill Nelson. He also massively outperformed Obama in 2012. He seems able to pick up poorer (White) voters in rural in suburban Florida to pad his margin and thus this by being Moderate. We know that a vast number of Bush voters voted for Nelson, it's a mathematical necessity. For the Exit Poll to be credible, we would expect there to be a correlation between Nader's vote share and Nelson's runahead over Gore, since that would show more conservatively or moderately minded voters taking Nader as a protest vote. If there is no correlation or an anti-correlation, then that makes the exit poll being useful much less likely.

Again, all of this is to say basically that you have no compelling reason to favor one outcome over another. As I stated before, Florida was a state governed by Jeb Bush at the time, which could easily have influenced other voters in a manner similar to policies that Nader held. This simple factor must imply that such standards cannot be applied across the board based merely upon national exit polling data. The fact remains that the amount of differentiation differs from state to state. So, again, your claim suggests that we should discount what evidence exists already for a alternative theory that has merely a circumstantial foundation in reality. I remain unconvinced by such arguments and I see no compelling reason why anyone else should consider such a scenario to represent the reality of the outcome.
 
People need to give this whole "if Nader hadn't run thing" a rest.

Nader did run, as was his right and voters voted for him as was their right and the only purpose I can see for this line of complaint is to say that anyone not voting for the DP is a loon or a destroyer of worlds, unless they vote rightist, in which case that's perfectly fine.
 
People need to give this whole "if Nader hadn't run thing" a rest.

Nader did run, as was his right and voters voted for him as was their right and the only purpose I can see for this line of complaint is to say that anyone not voting for the DP is a loon or a destroyer of worlds, unless they vote rightist, in which case that's perfectly fine.
The point was that voting third party can lose an election.
 
Hey, but it only took 31 Congressional critters asking 24 times over the last 3 years for the OLC memo authorizing the drone killing of Anwar al-Awlaki to get the Administration to agree to release the memo (yet to be release though):
http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/05/20/obama-to-release-olc-memo-after-only-24-congressional-requests/

I ran out of reasons to vote for Obama prior to 2012...as I voted against the military-complex in 2008 by rolling the dice with him (being a moderate libertarian). But I can still vote for Sen. Wyden as he has many reasonable stances.
 
No, that's an accurate quote as far as I can tell, but it is taken out of context since he is talking about national exit poll figures, not individual state exit polls. The exit polls conducted by CNN for Florida give the aforementioned figures.

The Exit Polls will have been subject to the problems I describe above in 2000. I am sorry, but your claim that they prove your case is simply misinformed.

The number of persons actually interviewed by the exit pollers will have been very small, and the raw results are systematically distorted to conform to the reported results. Either of those could have introduced an error into the figures you cite.

Statistically the poll accuracy is related to the sample size and the vote total of the candidate. In this case it is the Nadar voters polled compared to the total numbers of people who voted for Nader. There is no reason to believe that this poll is not as accurate for Nader as it was for Gore or Bush. Exit polls have been shown to be very accurate, except in cases of voting irregularities, like in this case where so many Democrats were thrown off of the voting rolls, some 60,000, illegally. So much so that exiting polling is used to highlight possible irregularities.
 
As the current two party system exists, a non vote for the Democrat means rewarding the party whose platform is obstruction and endless meaningless investigations of the opposing party President.
It happened to Clinton, and they are trying their best with Obama.
The same party who remembers they are all about fiscal conservative only when again the opposing party holds the office of president.

Frankly the alternative is deplorable.
 
People need to give this whole "if Nader hadn't run thing" a rest.

Nader did run, as was his right and voters voted for him as was their right and the only purpose I can see for this line of complaint is to say that anyone not voting for the DP is a loon or a destroyer of worlds, unless they vote rightist, in which case that's perfectly fine.
The point was that voting third party can lose an election.

It's a weak point, because any number of things could have caused Gore to win, not just the fact that Nader ran. It's easy to look back, after the fact, and point out that had X been different, the world would have changed. But at the time, nobody could have been expected to know that, nor would we expect voters in future elections to know that.
 
People need to give this whole "if Nader hadn't run thing" a rest.

Nader did run, as was his right and voters voted for him as was their right and the only purpose I can see for this line of complaint is to say that anyone not voting for the DP is a loon or a destroyer of worlds, unless they vote rightist, in which case that's perfectly fine.
The point was that voting third party can lose an election.

It's a weak point, because any number of things could have caused Gore to win, not just the fact that Nader ran.
Not that Nader ran, but that people voted for Nader as a third party.
It's easy to look back, after the fact, and point out that had X been different, the world would have changed.
Well heck, the Butterfly ballot may have been enough to change the result of the election!
But at the time, nobody could have been expected to know that, nor would we expect voters in future elections to know that.
We knew it was going to be close. No one knew how close. The difference in Florida was a tiny fraction of a single percent. As per my math above, all it would have taken was for 5% of Nader voters in Florida to change their mind about voting for Nader. If, of that 5%, 25% went for Gore, and 24% went for W, and 50% voted for Mickey Mouse, Gore wins Florida. Nader being on the ballot made a huge difference in the election and the future of the nation.

Of course, if 9/11 happened with Gore, the Republicans probably would have impeached him, and Jeb Bush would have been elected in '04.
 
Of course, if 9/11 happened with Gore, the Republicans probably would have impeached him, and Jeb Bush would have been elected in '04.
Oooohhhh alternate futures…fun stuff: Or say Gore was elected in 2000. The dot-com bust and 9-11 still happened. We invade/occupy Afghanistan, but avoid the Iraqi mess. Gore keeps the status quo of keeping Saddam boxed in and squeaks by with a win of the 2004 election. The Repugs win control of both houses of Congress in 2006. We still get the 2008 financial meltdown, and McCain gets elected. GM goes thru the normal bankruptcy process and eventually returns to life not too much different than now. Chrysler gets sucked down thru the vortex and dies, as Congress squabbles on what to do, but the parties can’t come to an agreement. Jeep gets sold off to a Chinese company. By early 2010 Pres. McCain attacks Iran based upon inflated concerns about Iranian nuclear weapons effort. He does this partly to deflect concerns about the really shitty economy…but the war ends up much messier than the Shrub-Iraqi fiasco. The Banksters still come out on top, but the Dums are bitching really loud about it. By the 2012 election cycle, McCain decides he is just too old and tired to run again; and hands off the mantle to his VP…
 
No, that's an accurate quote as far as I can tell, but it is taken out of context since he is talking about national exit poll figures, not individual state exit polls. The exit polls conducted by CNN for Florida give the aforementioned figures.

The Exit Polls will have been subject to the problems I describe above in 2000. I am sorry, but your claim that they prove your case is simply misinformed.

The number of persons actually interviewed by the exit pollers will have been very small, and the raw results are systematically distorted to conform to the reported results. Either of those could have introduced an error into the figures you cite.

Statistically the poll accuracy is related to the sample size and the vote total of the candidate. In this case it is the Nadar voters polled compared to the total numbers of people who voted for Nader. There is no reason to believe that this poll is not as accurate for Nader as it was for Gore or Bush. Exit polls have been shown to be very accurate, except in cases of voting irregularities, like in this case where so many Democrats were thrown off of the voting rolls, some 60,000, illegally. So much so that exiting polling is used to highlight possible irregularities.

We're talking about the poll within the poll here, Simpledon, not the poll itself. Samhain is asserting that the preferences of the subgroup of respondents who indicated they had voted for Nader in Florida showed more with a preference for voting for Bush if Nader was not on the ticket than those who would have voted for Gore if Nader was not available. (I'll also add that Samhain has not provided a citation.) My point is, once again, that this is such an improbable result, the implied sample size is so small, and there are so many known problems with Edison Resarch's exit polls, that this just has to be dismissed as a bad result.
 
By the 2012 election cycle, McCain decides he is just too old and tired to run again; and hands off the mantle to his VP…

If you are implying a Palin in 2012 scenario as a result of the Gore win, I would respond that Palin's VP nomination was the result of a desperation move in McCain's campaign. Any scenario that has him swept in on anger against Gore on the Financial Crisis is one where Palin is unlikely to have been considered.
 
I am so glad that I switched parties in the 80's. Mr Higgins you are so right about these big fish eating the little fish in our world today. I mean come on people ATT buying DirectTV, WTF? It seems like ATT is positioning herself to battle the big evil dip shits at Time Warner and Comcast. Now there is truly an evil corporation IMO. If you do not pay up you get squat! And squat today is a snail speed in the pipeline. I know that my ATT DSL sucks so I recently hopped onboard their new "fiber optics" since all DSL's will be grandfathered. Most people do not even know this little fact. Yet as crappy as ATT is Comcast or Xfinity is even more crappy and could care less what the client needs; they suck way more.

Listening and watching all the 24/7hate media constant bombardment of vile lying hate I am glad that I am a proud card carrying Democrat. Even as the Democratic party is way more screwed up, unorganized and never on message like the GOP hate machine we still in our little ways make an ever so little difference in the world. The only problem is that in the corporate world's hegemony Democrat or republican it does not matter. Our next POTUS will be that Bitch Hillary and corporate America loves the Clintons.

Are we running out of reasons to vote Democrat? Yep all the time. But the alternative going over to the dark side, republican, is even a more disgusting choice. There are two kinds of republicans in the world. Those who are and those who think that they are. The later being people in the realm of Teabaggers and Wingnuts!

Oh well. where is Teddy Roosevelt when you need him today?

Peace

Pegasus
I guess it's not a monopoly if you have a choice between Big Evil Dipshit A or Big Evil Dipshit B. For me, as with banking, I will do my little fish part and not do business with Big Evil Dipshit where there is still choice. I may never matter, but it matters to me.

They are until they need to access social services, then they're confused and look to Jesus for answers.

If you want people to vote, then you have to give them something to vote for, not vote against. Playing defense ain't sexy. Saying things like "You need to vote and you need to vote democratic because of judicial nominations" will get you yawns, blank stares, and "who cares" from a population a substantial number of which can't name the three branches of govt.

GOPers vote FOR stuff. They aren't voting against gay marriage, they are voting FOR the protection of the family. They are not voting against abortion, but FOR the lives of the unborn. They aren't voting against separation of church and state but FOR freedom of religious expression.

What is the DP for? Evidently compromise, capitulation, and co-opting the GOP talking points of the 1990s.

People in this country are for
  • Increasing the minimum wage
  • Decreasing our military presence abroad
  • Making healthcare available, accessible, and affordable to more citizens
  • Improving education
  • Fixing our immigration policy


These are things the DP should be educating the populace about and driving the policies for not just during an election year but doing so 24/7/52

But they are not

The question is why aren't they?
For as much as people bag on the Tea Party, at least they managed cohesiveness. What does the far-right do? Honestly, they look like a Chinese fire drill.


Anyway, the real problem is first-past-the-post voting. Whenever Nader comes up in a discussion about being a spoiler, the next topic that should Succeed it should always be the need to change the voting system.
Oh well. where is Teddy Roosevelt when you need him today?
Could Teddy get anything done today? I would think he, like many good candidates we will never know would focus their efforts where they can accomplish something. Point is, how does political affiliation necessarily effect change? That is, the person with the (I) after their name gets neutered or spayed as the case may be by the political machine just as anyone else would willing to step out of line. Not to say change to the voting system is wrong, heavens no, but it is a slow walk. A law preventing campaign contributions, a real law with no backdoors, loopholes, or end-arounds can effect change overnight. Then good people are free to do good things within the political machine and greedy people will be inclined to look elsewhere, and that elsewhere can be regulated by the good people in politics, regulations that are enforced.
 
People need to give this whole "if Nader hadn't run thing" a rest.

Nader did run, as was his right and voters voted for him as was their right and the only purpose I can see for this line of complaint is to say that anyone not voting for the DP is a loon or a destroyer of worlds, unless they vote rightist, in which case that's perfectly fine.
The point was that voting third party can lose an election.

so it's a dangerous thing that should never be done? The risks are just too high? Doesn't matter what you believe to be right, you should choose to path of least harm because that is the best we ever do?
 
By the 2012 election cycle, McCain decides he is just too old and tired to run again; and hands off the mantle to his VP…

If you are implying a Palin in 2012 scenario as a result of the Gore win, I would respond that Palin's VP nomination was the result of a desperation move in McCain's campaign. Any scenario that has him swept in on anger against Gore on the Financial Crisis is one where Palin is unlikely to have been considered.
LOL You are free to run wild with your own imagination if you like...or wait in hopeful anticipation for a next installment ;)



Though I think you are right in that I could not see Palin as a likely pick in any alternate reality scenario.
 
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