Autism and Mind Blindness

[barbos]

Like when I here music in my head,

Are we talking about actual external music or something usually described as schizophrenic episode?

This is vastly different from other systems where there's a surface I interact with inside my head which, beyond that surface, it is completely opaque.

What other systems?

You describe something completely alien to normal people. People don't interact with "systems" and surfaces in their heads. It's not like some kind of computer you need to interact with.

If it's not some kind of experiment or joke on you part you need to talk to a doctor about this.

 

[Jarhyn]

Like when I here music in my head,

Are we talking about actual external music or something usually described as schizophrenic episode?

This is vastly different from other systems where there's a surface I interact with inside my head which, beyond that surface, it is completely opaque.

What other systems?

You describe something completely alien to normal people. People don't interact with "systems" and surfaces in their heads. It's not like some kind of computer you need to interact with.

If it's not some kind of experiment or joke on you part you need to talk to a doctor about this.

See this is what I'm talking about. You don't have the ability to think of a song, enjoy the music, and then turn it off?

Barbos, this is what it's like for a LOT of different autistic people.

Personally, I'm not about to go to a doctor to complain about having the ability to listen to music without needing to play it on a radio or even use headphones.

That sounds rather silly, in fact, to want to remove.

The experience of editing my grammars would probably really freak you out, I suppose.

 

[barbos]

See this is what I'm talking about. You don't have the ability to think of a song, enjoy the music, and then turn it off?

Absolutely not. I need MP3 player for that.
I suppose some musicians can compose in their heads, but I doubt even they can save money on actual physical MP3 player.

Barbos, this is what it's like for a LOT of different autistic people.

I have never heard such a thing.

 

[abaddon]

You don't have the ability to think of a song, enjoy the music, and then turn it off?

I can listen to music in imagination. But I don't frame the experience in the metaphors that you frame it with. The difference is probably that you're a computer engineer, so the lingo and images that go with that is applied in all situations. So maybe it's more an issue of deformation professionelle than autism. Your interest in machinery has reshaped your perceptions of the world and your mind. You apply the machine metaphor as if it's universal-izable to everything.

I'm an artist. I tend to notice the organic and sensuous feel of life and so "the topography" inside my headspace has more of a feel of landscape than digital gizmos. When I recreate music in imagination, I don't flip a switch and put it on "loop". I'm more likely to imagine musicians on a stage than switches and buttons and turning things "on" and "off".

We shape our worlds with metaphors.

 

[steve_bank]

I watched a bio of the Beach Boys.

Their composer Brain Wilson said when he sat down at a piano to compose he visualy saw notes hanging over the piano.

Did Van Gogh create Starry Night from imagination or did he paint whar he saw? Or Salvador Dali.

There is a condition where auditory and visual nerves are mixed, and audio stimulus changes perceived colors.

How we each perceive and experience is unknown.

I was always more auditory than visual. I tend to recognize a voice before a face. Visual art never did anything for me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thanks for the response Jaryn. For what its worth, I don't think there is a typical 'mind' as you might be thinking about.

As evidenced by the forum certainly not atheists.

I think a certain way and approach problems in a certain way because I am conditioned by 30 years of a particular kind of problem solving.

It's safe to conclude that our minds are as different and as variable as our outside appearances. How could it not be any other way? Conditions and "disorders" and pathologies are all a matter of degree. I've never heard the phrase "mind blindness" before so when I first saw it I equated it with a lack of self awareness. Now it appears to be pronounced self awareness as far as I can understand it, resulting in a kind of social anxiety condition

It refers to a blindness to other minds. Kids all start out that way, they don't realize that others can have differing perceptions of the world. (Kid watches a scene: A enters, hides an object, leaves. B enters, removes the object, leaves. Kid expects A to know the object isn't there anymore--in time they learn otherwise.)

 

[Jarhyn]

You don't have the ability to think of a song, enjoy the music, and then turn it off?

I can listen to music in imagination. But I don't frame the experience in the metaphors that you frame it with. The difference is probably that you're a computer engineer, so the lingo and images that go with that is applied in all situations. So maybe it's more an issue of deformation professionelle than autism. Your interest in machinery has reshaped your perceptions of the world and your mind. You apply the machine metaphor as if it's universal-izable to everything.

I'm an artist. I tend to notice the organic and sensuous feel of life and so "the topography" inside my headspace has more of a feel of landscape than digital gizmos. When I recreate music in imagination, I don't flip a switch and put it on "loop". I'm more likely to imagine musicians on a stage than switches and buttons and turning things "on" and "off".

We shape our worlds with metaphors.

There's a part that has landscape and space but that's more the large-scale grammar framework.

The reality is more "feeling a feel that I am capable of feeling on demand and feeling it in a direction"

Surface means something differently to me than it probably means to you, too.

Not metaphorically, but literally, it's the neurological equivalent of a wire connecting two systems that can only talk by sending messages across that wire. The surface metaphor is more about the fact that that's the structure that has to be "pushed" against, albeit with an idea rather than anything less exotic.

It is rather switch-like though in that I just do the thing and it turns on, or (hopefully) off.

When it comes to the vocabulary, there's a dimensionality to it, but it's not three dimensional or cleanly Euclidian. It's more like a graph structure of vocabulary, and then nodes which, when I think about them, belch statements formed from connected nodes in series. I can reflect on it happening but I don't always, or even usually.

If I don't like the result of it, I can do us a particular way at that particular idea and keep doing that until the node produces the right answer, or at least an answer that doesn't come off wrong.

The point is more that I can tell what is and isn't "me" even on the inside of my head, though. I can cleanly perceive when I'm the one thinking vs some other isolated part of my brain that I interact with, but which is compartmentalized elsewhere.

Barbos answered the question pretty clearly in that this IS a rather alien experience compared to at least some folks.

 

[excreationist]

Once I had been diagnosed as possibly being borderline aspergers but I thought some of this applies to me....

• What is the lived experience of someone with poor theory of mind like?

I've got a lot of stories about me doing or saying inappropriate things and often didn't realise it because no one said anything. Now I can anticipate if saying certain things might turn out good or badly.

Some stories - I was in year 12 and saw a very attractive year 10 girl coming in the opposite direction. I had never interacted with her before. I said "will you go out with me?" and she said "no!!!". A worse example is I was a similar age and I sometimes would ring a girl who was about 13. One time I was asking her to visit my friends house to watch pornos (well actually it was explicit adult education videos). She said that didn't know my friend. I assumed that was her only reason so I said something like that he's a good friend of mine. I didn't understand why she didn't want to come. My dad told me that her dad has some type of problem with it but I didn't understand because her dad and her were always very friendly towards me. I only stopped calling her after I asked her "would you want to meet up with me in the next year?" and she replied "I don't know". So I realised she actually wasn't interested in me even though sometimes she'd talk about shaving her legs in the shower, etc. Other examples - in year 8 or 9 I was asked to ask a girl I was friends with if she'd give Edward Furlong a blow job. I asked her straight away even though I didn't know what it meant. I didn't really care what it was either so I didn't bother asking anyone else about it. Another time I was asked to write a card that said "get stuffed" and give it to the pastor. I put a cartoon of a teddy bear so I was implying I didn't mean it seriously. Another time I had a knife I liked and a guy told me to wave it at the girl I liked that I lived with. I did and said hi to her in a friendly way and she replied in a friendly way. It turned out that she was terrified and reported me to the resident advisor.

Note despite sometimes being fearless with girls the first time I held a girls hand or went on a coffee, etc, was at the age of 29. I think consuming large amounts of pickup/relationship material helped - I learnt different approaches such as direct and indirect. I also read non-shallow material like Consider instead women outside the mainstream. Fellow social outcasts, they are real people, human beings who have had to grapple with life's hardships, to endure pain, to choke on embarrassment, to feel the lash of rejection... just as you have. Struggling with problems, rebounding from failure, learning by necessity to fight - all this develops the personality, forces one to grow, to become fully human, to become capable of loving and worthy of being loved.

BTW I only realised that eye contact was important in high school when I read my dad's book called "Body Language" by Allan Pease. I later read his book "Talk Language" which talks about meta language, etc, like in real estate and politics - and stages in getting to know people. Before in primary school a girl I didn't like said "don't stare!" and I didn't know what she meant. Another time I was perving on a girl in the bus and she gave me the finger.

I also had fears about parties, school excursions and school dances. I think it was because I wasn't sure what would happen or what to do and I liked structure. I think part of the fear started when I was about 5 and asked to play with them and they rejected me. I then very rarely initiated friendships/conversations.

Now I've been married for ten years - so now I think I'm quite good at theory of mind. I also like material by John Gottman which said

The Magic Relationship Ratio, According to Science

That “magic ratio” is 5 to 1. This means that for every negative interaction during conflict, a stable and happy marriage has five (or more) positive interactions.

www.gottman.com

That “magic ratio” is 5 to 1. This means that for every negative interaction during conflict, a stable and happy marriage has five (or more) positive interactions.

So that made me more comfortable with conflicts in relationships. I also read somewhere that a woman is more attracted to a man who gives her a range of emotions rather than someone boring (a "doormat"?)

When I was in my mid to late 20's a case worker told me that I'd be pretty normal by the time I was 30 and that turned out to be true - I then studied B Software Engineering full time then was a web developer for 30 hours a week (if I had worked any more than that I wouldn't be eligible for the disability support pension). I also initiated a class reunion a couple of years ago. I told a girl there that I used to have a crush on her.

The only things I've been diagnosed with are depression (caused by going from creationism to atheism) then bipolar disorder then schizoaffective disorder. Well now there is anxiety.

 

[steve_bank]

In my enior building we have around 140 apartments. We have a mix of whites, blacks, and Asians. Asians. People who came over as immigrants.

When we socialize we talk about food, problems, and politics. Swap stories and jokes. Sometimes people philosophize but we don't discuss philosophy. We commiserate over problems.

Nobody is interested in a theory of mind. We are all aware of ourselves as individuals and well aware of others as individuals. I don't see any kind of mental blindness. Over time we come to know each others quirks, ways of doing things, and ways of thinking.

When you get to know people you fund people have insight and understanding from just living and interacting with others.

We all just get about living and doing what we like to do. A Vietnamese woman for her daily ritual goes up on our roof deck taking care of the potted trees and plants and keeping things in order. She is not paid for it, it is what she likes to do. She's been doing it for years.

A group of Chinese meet in our community room with food and spend hours playing a game. Don't know the language but they are constantly chatting and laughing having a good time.

To me that is 'typical' of people in general at last in my generation. Social media is interfering with what I consider healthy socializing.

Point of it all being, if you want to know how others think, get to know people without looking through a critical lens.

 

[rousseau]

To me that is 'typical' of people in general at last in my generation. Social media is interfering with what I consider healthy socializing.

One of the problems for my generation is that the internet makes it too easy to network. You can maintain important contacts without the extra effort of needing to see them.

Up until the pandemic most of our socializing was done in the office, but with the new era of remote work many aren't getting much face time at all. After three years of it I've seen my own social skills decline.

 

[steve_bank]

When email was introduced into business people 10 feet away emailed instead of getting up and talking.

It led to communications problems and conflict. Without body language and tone of voice emails could be misinterpreted.

 

[steve_bank]

Signs & Symptoms | Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) | NCBDDD | CDC

Learn about signs and symptoms regarding conditions called autism spectrum disorder (ASD).

www.cdc.gov

Signs and Symptoms
Español (Spanish) | Print

Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a developmental disability caused by differences in the brain. People with ASD often have problems with social communication and interaction, and restricted or repetitive behaviors or interests. People with ASD may also have different ways of learning, moving, or paying attention. It is important to note that some people without ASD might also have some of these symptoms. But for people with ASD, these characteristics can make life very challenging.

People with ASD have behaviors or interests that can seem unusual. These behaviors or interests set ASD apart from conditions defined by problems with social communication and interaction only.

Examples of restricted or repetitive behaviors and interests related to ASD can include
Close-up of child playing with toy blocks on the carpet.

Lines up toys or other objects and gets upset when order is changed
Repeats words or phrases over and over (called echolalia)
Plays with toys the same way every time
Is focused on parts of objects (for example, wheels)
Gets upset by minor changes
Has obsessive interests
Must follow certain routines
Flaps hands, rocks body, or spins self in circles
Has unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel

Other Characteristics

Most people with ASD have other related characteristics. These might include

Delayed language skills
Delayed movement skills
Delayed cognitive or learning skills
Hyperactive, impulsive, and/or inattentive behavior
Epilepsy or seizure disorder
Unusual eating and sleeping habits
Gastrointestinal issues (for example, constipation)
Unusual mood or emotional reactions
Anxiety, stress, or excessive worry
Lack of fear or more fear than expected

It is important to note that children with ASD may not have all or any of the behaviors listed as examples here.

 

[Jarhyn]

Steve, for my generation, and everyone who came after, we were brought up with these communication types and learned them early.

Many of us have fully half or more of our social groups completely composed of digital interactions in pure text, and the fact is, it makes learning about different and new types of people accessible.

 

[rousseau]

I've definitely benefited from being a member of this forum for the past ten or so years. But I don't think you can truly replicate face to face relationships and communication online. We're wired to bond with people in physical space, not over text.

I've been lucky to have my wife to talk to through the pandemic. For some we know who live alone it's been a real struggle.

 

[Swammerdami]

When I was young, "autism" was not a common diagnosis and often seemed to equate to "catatonic." At the insistence of a girl-friend (who herself had severe OCD and owed her psychiatrist $100,000+) I visited three psychiatrists but was never diagnosed with anything but anxiety neurosis.

But I think I was autistic. I score 17 out of 17 on an on-line take-it-yourself Asperger's test. Even in my mid-20's I was so reluctant to speak in front of strangers or large groups that I was sometimes (jokingly?) called a deaf-mute. In many ways I was an idiot-savant. To speak of the savant would be bragging, but as an idiot I still often ask for help on simple tasks.

Although I knew I was almost always "the smartest person in the room" I had a severe "inferiority complex" -- I felt I had inferior personality and social skills. In the early 1980's I was almost normal, briefly; but then I developed a superiority complex. I think the inferiority and superiority may just be two sides of the same coin!

Whereas high functioning autistic people are more likely to be attracted to knowledge and projects, and only socializing when it's interesting to them. Sitting around talking about superficial subjects is boring and hard work when they could be learning instead.

So for typical people it's not extraordinarily different from those who are atypical, except that they derive more pleasure from other people, and that takes precedence over knowing about the world.

And I also think you have to avoid conflating 'enjoys being social' with 'having good social skills'. A lot of people who 'enjoy being social' have terrible social skills and say a lot of dumb shit, while people who don't enjoy being social have very good social skills. It's really just a matter of what the mind is attracted to, and which niche it fits in.

This fits me perfectly. I have always been a "loner." I enjoy reading, solitary walks, etc. I've almost zero friends -- and when I make a new friend I often regret it. Yet strangers usually get along with me because I'm cheerful, generous, etc.

Although I am a loner, my social skills aren't too bad. Sometimes I'm better than typical at perceiving another's status or emotions.

 

[lostone]

I don't think I am autistic, but I do have some of the associated traits. I also am a loner, with mixed social skills. I also have few friends and get along well with strangers. One characteristic of intelligent people is that they realize how much they do not know and how limited their abilities are and that often makes them modest and retreating because they realize how much they do not know and do not wish to embarress themselves.

 

[rousseau]

Whereas high functioning autistic people are more likely to be attracted to knowledge and projects, and only socializing when it's interesting to them. Sitting around talking about superficial subjects is boring and hard work when they could be learning instead.

So for typical people it's not extraordinarily different from those who are atypical, except that they derive more pleasure from other people, and that takes precedence over knowing about the world.

And I also think you have to avoid conflating 'enjoys being social' with 'having good social skills'. A lot of people who 'enjoy being social' have terrible social skills and say a lot of dumb shit, while people who don't enjoy being social have very good social skills. It's really just a matter of what the mind is attracted to, and which niche it fits in.

This fits me perfectly. I have always been a "loner." I enjoy reading, solitary walks, etc. I've almost zero friends -- and when I make a new friend I often regret it. Yet strangers usually get along with me because I'm cheerful, generous, etc.

Although I am a loner, my social skills aren't too bad. Sometimes I'm better than typical at perceiving another's status or emotions.

It's about the same for me. When speaking to people one-on-one my social skills are good because that dynamic lends itself to intimacy and listening skills. But I just don't have the give a shit required to say the appropriate things when I'm in a large group. I can if I'm forced, but don't like it. People who are good at that type of thing tend to have intrinsic motivation to speak.

And I'm at a stage of my life where I don't have the patience to spend time with people who don't help me grow, which is a problem because there aren't many in my peer group who fit the bill. Most of my acquaintances spend their time drinking beer and playing video games. There's absolutely nothing I find less interesting.

Cue over 20 000 posts at this forum, Talk Freethought, and FRDB.

 

[rousseau]

When email was introduced into business people 10 feet away emailed instead of getting up and talking.

It led to communications problems and conflict. Without body language and tone of voice emails could be misinterpreted.

I've read the argument that there's a bit of a network problem now. If 20 - 40% of people are content sitting at home staring at social media or playing video games, that reduces the quantity of people available to socialize with. For men living in a community they didn't grow up in, and who don't have many friends, that can be a real problem.

I've also heard that since the 1990s the average number of friends held by men has been cut in half. For me, personally, I ended up settling in a city with no family or childhood friends. I can count on one hand the people I can actually contact and go hang out with. And most of them either never go out or are busy raising a family.

The result pretty much has to be isolation. Since my employer went remote I've been cut off from contact with anyone beyond my immediate family.

 

[Swammerdami]

Although I am a loner, my social skills aren't too bad. Sometimes I'm better than typical at perceiving another's status or emotions.

I should say: My social skills aren't too bad if I avoid excessive oration. (And avoid politics with Americans or Brits.) Otherwise I'm liable to veer into some useless topic -- Shakespeare authorship anyone? -- then segue consecutively into some other topic in science or history, then politics, then an amusing fact about the Thai language, and so on; the topics all connected mootly. I often wrest myself from this abyss with "What were we talking about?"

Is that a symptom of Autism? Or is it more Attention Deficit Disorder? Schizophrenia?

 

[steve_bank]

I don't think I am autistic, but I do have some of the associated traits. I also am a loner, with mixed social skills. I also have few friends and get along well with strangers. One characteristic of intelligent people is that they realize how much they do not know and how limited their abilities are and that often makes them modest and retreating because they realize how much they do not know and do not wish to embarress themselves.

As inferedte link we all can have what may be considered symptoms of a [sychlogicl disorder.

in the exteeme hypochondria. In the STNG series there was the Barkley characterr who was alwys thinking he had symptoms of some malady.