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Believe it or not: Karl Marx is making a comeback

Imagine? If? We don't need to imagine it. We've seen what happens when anti-capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest.

Self-interest may be a base aspect, but it's hardly the basest one. For instance, one aspect that's baser is "If the theory does not match the facts they must be discarded.". 19th-century Marxists may perhaps be forgiven -- to believe in that theory when it had never been tried was mind-blowingly stupid, but it wasn't evil. Modern Marxists have no excuse.

So, Bomb, here we go again. Just what "facts" are you referring to? Socialism is the future whether you like it or not. What we are looking at today is a dying system of Capitalistic empires. Modern Marxists do not have to make excuses.
When anti-capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest, the result is always a police state and usually a famine. You're right that Modern Marxists do not have to make excuses: they could just say straight out that they want to once again inflict the Soviet Union, Maoist China, North Korea or the Cambodian killing fields on mankind; but then that's why they generally try to make excuses. That may well be the future whether I like it or not; if so that's a tragedy. It's not a reason to think those responsible for making it happen again are decent human beings.

Of course by "socialism" you may well mean something other than abolishing private property. People call all manner of things "socialism", even nice wholesome things. But they are not things people actually get by letting anti-capitalists try to build an economy around the better aspects of human nature.
 
So, Bomb, here we go again. Just what "facts" are you referring to? Socialism is the future whether you like it or not. What we are looking at today is a dying system of Capitalistic empires. Modern Marxists do not have to make excuses.
When anti-capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest, the result is always a police state and usually a famine. You're right that Modern Marxists do not have to make excuses: they could just say straight out that they want to once again inflict the Soviet Union, Maoist China, North Korea or the Cambodian killing fields on mankind; but then that's why they generally try to make excuses. That may well be the future whether I like it or not; if so that's a tragedy. It's not a reason to think those responsible for making it happen again are decent human beings.

Of course by "socialism" you may well mean something other than abolishing private property. People call all manner of things "socialism", even nice wholesome things. But they are not things people actually get by letting anti-capitalists try to build an economy around the better aspects of human nature.

Socialism is alive and well in the world today. You are living in the past. Get over it! Would you call what Wall Street with all its tampering with money a better example of how to live...or perhaps we should just get down on our knees and pray to the Waltons. I do not understand why you seem to believe that common people cannot exist within a socialistic framework. Much of this is being done today without making war, without imprisoning people in concentration camps, and without genocide.

The Soviet Union never had a chance to succeed. If you will recall, I pointed out that Marx's criticism of capitalism was spot on. I also said that I did not accept his idea of how to implement socialism. Socialism does not require a dictator. Capitalism is nothing but a collection of rich dictators in charge of other peoples' lives and fates. What you think of as socialism is a dictatorship. Why do you imagine that a cooperative cannot exist without a dictator. Who has fed you this this line? Dictators do not need socialism in order to become dictators. In fact, there is nothing socialistic about authoritarianism (soviet or Cambodian or American style). The regimes you point to were not socialism in the first place. They were not democratic. They were militaristic and authoritarian. I know you have a strong contempt for rabble. That is an elitist idea and actually the same kind of mindset that operates in dictatorships.

Today, our system of billionaire rule is failing us. How do you propose to fix that? Got any ideas? Gerge Bernard Shaw had an entirely different model of socialism that yet has to be tried. The same for John Rawls. We are always existing on new ground. There is no totally satisfactory one size fits all solution for the problem of living together in peace. Humanity itself is a work in progress. I would hate to think it had reached its pinnacle in the likes of men like the Koch Brothers, the Waltons and Donald Rumsfeldt.

They are YOUR HEROES of predatory capitalism. A sorry bunch they are.:thinking:
 
"Self-interest" is not the entirety of human nature.

Imagine if we tried to build an economy around the better aspects of human nature rather than the basest one.
Imagine? If? We don't need to imagine it. We've seen what happens when anti-capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest.

Yes, what happens is that the stronger, more established capitalist economies step in to smash the fledgling system and reinstitute capitalistic policies.

Self-interest may be a base aspect, but it's hardly the basest one. For instance, one aspect that's baser is "If the theory does not match the facts they must be discarded.". 19th-century Marxists may perhaps be forgiven -- to believe in that theory when it had never been tried was mind-blowingly stupid, but it wasn't evil. Modern Marxists have no excuse.

Socialism doesn't have to equal Stalinism or Maoism. hth
 
When anti-capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest, the result is always a police state and usually a famine. You're right that Modern Marxists do not have to make excuses: they could just say straight out that they want to once again inflict the Soviet Union, Maoist China, North Korea or the Cambodian killing fields on mankind; but then that's why they generally try to make excuses. That may well be the future whether I like it or not; if so that's a tragedy. It's not a reason to think those responsible for making it happen again are decent human beings.

Isn't the fashionably excuse to say: "Give us another chance. We'll get it right next time. Promise. :)"
 
So, Bomb, here we go again. Just what "facts" are you referring to? Socialism is the future whether you like it or not. What we are looking at today is a dying system of Capitalistic empires. Modern Marxists do not have to make excuses.
When anti-capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest, the result is always a police state and usually a famine.
When fervent capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human self-interest, the result is typically a police state and usually a famine. Just compare the record of countries restructured by intervention by western idealists with those that managed to avoid such a fate.

The moral there is simply that building an economy isn't something you can do from a plan.
 
Continued from above. Sorry that it took so long to post this, life intruded and claimed my attention.

Now OPEC raising oil prices and all oil-related prices go up in accordance with that. Our borrower, who was an entrepreneur, finds that he can no longer compete in his business because his production methods were more oil intensive than this competitors. He declares bankruptcy. He still owes $800. The bank gets $100 in settlement from the bankruptcy court. It loses $700. The money supply declines by $700. OPEC's price increase has a deflationary effect on the economy.

Of course, other things are happening as will. Consumers are hit with higher gasoline prices so they withdraw savings to meet expenses, for example. But these effects are all deflationary where deflation is understood as a reduction in the money supply. This is why the conflation of the terms inflation and deflation to mean either changes in the money supply OR increases or decreases in the price level can create a great deal of confusion.

Thus, an oil price shock, as well as a devaluation, is a contractionary event. The reason we do not experience it that way is because the central bank, seeing the rising unemployment and other signs of economic slowdown, acts to reverse the effect. This can take a number of forms. The can lower interest rates. They can loosen lending standards. They can lower the reserve requirement, etc. All of these measures will tend to increase the money supply i.e. they are inflationary measures.

So, where the initial event would produce, what neo-Keynesians claim causes cost-push inflation, actually leads to stagflation. But this stagflation wouldn't produce an overall increase in the price level. You would have selective price increases and selective price decreases. The decrease in wages, however, typically takes the form of higher unemployment. Since, according to Keynesians wages are a "sticky price" actual wages do not respond to deflation quickly. So the statistics do not show wage declines even though the actual money spent on labor has declined. The difference occurs in the form of unemployment.

Now , if this is properly understood, it should be clear that there is no basis for any endogenous increase in the money supply due to price increases. Even if we do see an increase in the CPI due to this "cost-push" inflation, the CPI does not capture the decline in aggregate wages that takes the form of unemployment.

There is nothing in this scenario that would lead to an increase in productivity and therefore to an increase bank deposits. On the contrary, the aggregate effect is heavily biased toward reduced productivity and reduced bank deposits.

Instead, at least in the post-depression world, the money supply grows due to exogenous money creation due to central bank policies although other government agencies can play a part.

This is why I asked you to specify the mechanism by which price increases can lead to an increase in the money supply. You simply responded that it produces endogenous money creation. The above analysis shows that such a scenario is extremely unlikely.

In Milton Friedman's point of view, the Fed should deliberately increase the money supply to smooth these things out. I don't agree with that, bit that is off-topic. Generally, the Fed members, regardless of any previous ideology wind up doing that anyway, but their approach is more seat-of-the pants than it is systematic.

Nevertheless, the end result is exogenous money creation. Price shocks cannot produce endogenous money creation except in the most unusual circumstances if it were possible at all.

Your entire argument is based on your redefining of the word "inflation" from its meaning in the English language and as used in economics.

This leaves you with a very simple logic train and your entire argument is,

If you redefine inflation as an increase in the money supply,
Then inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply.

It is simple but useless. It is circular reasoning, begging the question.

And you have the problem of what to call a general increase in prices and a fall in the purchasing power of money.

You also have redefined the word "devalue" to mean the exact opposite of its English language definition, "reduce or underestimate the worth or importance of." Your meaning in the explanation above is that the devaluation of the currency, the money, is deflationary, that the value of money increases when it is devalued. Under deflation, prices go down and the value of the money increases. You need less money to buy the same products than you did before.

In the real world the devaluation of money is inflationary, not deflationary. When prices go up the value of money is decreased. Because the value of the money has been decreased, you need more money to buy things, that is, inflation.

You can't declare that the devaluation of the money is deflationary and then turn around and say that inflation debases, devalues that money, the two statements contradict each other.

You reach the incorrect conclusion that devaluation of the currency is deflationary through this train of illogic.

Now OPEC raising oil prices and all oil-related prices go up in accordance with that. Our borrower, who was an entrepreneur, finds that he can no longer compete in his business because his production methods were more oil intensive than this competitors. He declares bankruptcy. He still owes $800. The bank gets $100 in settlement from the bankruptcy court. It loses $700. The money supply declines by $700. OPEC's price increase has a deflationary effect on the economy.

Or he could just raise his prices, which is what the vast majority of businesses did.

But let's go with it. Let's assume that he is a especially stupid entrepreneur and the option of raising his prices didn't occur to him and he went bankrupt and deflated on his loans.

No, in the example you listed the money supply decreased by $100, the amount of the loan that was payed back to the bank. When your borrower took out the loan the money supply grew by the $800, value of the loan, the bank credited his account with the $800 creating that money out of thin air. Had he paid back the loan the money supply would have decreased by the $800 plus interest that he paid back to the bank. Since he defaulted on the loan and only $100 was paid back to the bank the money supply was only decreased by the $100. The difference of $700 is still in the money supply and will stay there permanently.

And your whole scenario depends on redefining a word, "deflation" to mean a decrease in the money supply, not a general decrease in prices.

Moving on, yes, if the price of oil goes up and people tighten their belts and don't spend as much on other things and don't demand higher wages to cover the higher prices there wouldn't be any endogenous money creation from the inflation. But there will be inflation because of the price of oil going up, using the English language/economics definition of inflation. But there also will be a decrease in economic activity because consumers will stop buying other goods and services in order to pay for the higher price of oil. This is stagflation, the combination of a stagnate economy and inflation.

If it is your position that inflation is always caused by exogenous money creation, as per your definition of inflation, you must be able to show that the increase in the prices of oil was caused exogenous money creation and not because, say, that OPEC wanted more money for their oil and controlled enough of its supply to be able to get it, just to toss out another possible reason.

And you must also be able to show that any increase in the money supply increases prices. The free market loving, pro-quantity theory of money loving monetarists don't go this far, they admit that an increase in the money supply will only increase prices if the economy is at equilibrium, that is at full employment and full capacity. At any other time they admit that increasing the money supply will stimulate the economy, reducing the unemployment toward the equilibrium level.

What the QToM tells us is that the money supply should grow to accommodate the growth in the economy, and allow for the money that enters or leaves the economy as a result of foreign trade. And to produce a small amount of inflation ever the year to make sure that there is enough money in circulation and to make sure that we don't slip into deflation. That where your and the free market economists that you follow including the Friedman monetarists fail is in assuming that the velocity of money and the number of transactions in the economy are always nearly constant, a necessary requirement for inflation to be caused by the growth in the economy. In the real economy these vary as a function of how people feel about the future direction of the economy.

On the other hand, if your position is that inflation can be caused by an exogenous increases in the money supply among many other reasons, including wage/price spiral, price shocks like the two oil ones, etc., then I would say welcome to the real world. Now we can have a constructive discussion.

Now we have to decide how often each of those reasons occur to produce inflation. How often inflation is caused by exogenous money creation and how often the increase in the money supply is caused by the endogenous creation of money as a symptom of inflation, not the cause of it.

For example, the oil price increase touched nearly every product in the economy. It raised the price of nearly everything, the classic example of cost push inflation. There was no escaping the increased prices. And when consumers did buy things on credit and the corporations borrowed to build or to cover seasonal sales drops and governments issued bonds to build schools, hospitals and roads the credit that all of them used had to be larger, for more money, to cover the inflated costs.

Price increases first, increases in the money supply follows because of the increase in credit and the endogenous creation of money that resulted.

Your QToM requires a dematical

But as to the original discussion, for the Wiemar Republic hyperinflation, it is pretty clear that the devaluation of the currency because of the need to buy gold from other countries to use to pay reparations, occurred a good six months before the hyperinflation set in, that the sequence was mark devaluation, inflation, then the increase in the money supply occurred. If the increase in the money supply had been the cause of the hyperinflation the sequence would have been reversed, the increase in the money supply, inflation, then the devaluation of the mark. Also, if the expansion of the money supply had caused the hyperinflation then the relief from the reparation payments wouldn't have relieved the hyperinflation and wouldn't have stabilized the rentmark, the sequence that happened.
 
Aren't you treating this idea of "money supply" as if were some magical item, available to all and existing in a homogenous society of like individuals? The size of the money supply doesn't matter if it always falls into only a few hands. The money supply for banks and other financial speculators has increased many fold in these last few years. The ultra rich and their institutions can control "inflation" by keeping it out of circulation independent of the best interests of the country and keep it worth a lot. Low inflation happens whenever there is little money available to the vast majority of the population to buy anything. That is simple supply and demand economical reality. In reality there is plenty of money in the hands of the casino speculators because their money comes to them with a fraction of a percent or zero interest.

When I last looked, I saw credit card and other means of middle class borrowing coming at from 12 to 29% interest. For the poor and the struggling, the rate goes in the hundreds of percentages. The lower one is on the totem pole, the higher the interest. That just tends to herd all the money (and ownership of property of all kinds) into the hands of the casino speculators. Their money supply is good (Fed + Government bailouts) while the average man on the street is scrabbling just trying to keep his family and himself fed.

Chicago style economics is indeed one of the sickest jokes played on the world and needs to be eliminated from the world and from world governments. As we approach hitting the wall, the rich corporations advocate ever greater tax decreases and also ever greater efforts at "security" against the very poor and very angry society they have cheated. Our government and its agencies become vassals of corporate America.

In short, no matter how much money is supplied, the ultra rich and corporate America consumes it all, along with all of our natural resources. This appears to be an inexorable progression that the current system of governance is allowing and in fact is pledged to continue. Homeland security will see to that. As it is, our economy is the hostage of folks like the Koch's and Exxon, and the Walton's. You can argue till the cows come home about inflation and deflation about booms and recessions. When the economy has the recessive genes of Capitalism, it is always a guarantee of suffering for the common man...and ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION.

Last night on 60 Minutes, I saw where Buffet and Gates and even our old Social Security nemesis Pete Peterson are signing pledges to give away up to half of their immense wealth...(to things they like) making them forever the saviors of our society. This was such a sick sham I almost puked. These people are so narcissistic I suspect they even may believe they are good people. In reality, they have sapped and robbed our society for their own self aggrandizement...and nothing much will come of their magnanimity except more of the same.

We are living in the new guilded age and it is ripe for reform or revolution. You cannot expect those who have created our economic problems to solve them, no matter how gracious or generous they may feel they are.
 
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Socialism is alive and well in the world today. You are living in the past. Get over it! Would you call what Wall Street with all its tampering with money a better example of how to live...
Why ask me? Why not ask the endless stream of people trying to emigrate from the U.S. into one of the remaining workers' paradises?

I do not understand why you seem to believe that common people cannot exist within a socialistic framework.
I understand why you say things like that about your political opponents even though you have no reason to think they're true. Setting up strawmen to argue against is your stock in trade, because you do not have substantive arguments. Of course common people can exist within a socialistic framework; I've never indicated otherwise.

Much of this is being done today without making war, without imprisoning people in concentration camps, and without genocide.
What countries do you have in mind, and based on what definition of "socialism" are you declaring them to be socialist? Do they in fact have economies built around "the better aspects of human nature"? This is a thread on Marx and Marxists, not a thread on every random economic system enthusiasts have ever labeled "socialism".

The Soviet Union never had a chance to succeed.
Hey, you finally got something right!

If you will recall, I pointed out that Marx's criticism of capitalism was spot on.
No, you didn't "point it out". You asserted it. Your assertion had no basis in fact. Marx's criticism of capitalism was based on analyzing it using the Labor Theory of Value, which is a religious ideology disconnected from economic reality. You might as well "point out" that William Jennings Bryan's criticism of Darwinism was spot on.

I also said that I did not accept his idea of how to implement socialism. Socialism does not require a dictator. Capitalism is nothing but a collection of rich dictators in charge of other peoples' lives and fates. What you think of as socialism is a dictatorship. Why do you imagine that a cooperative cannot exist without a dictator. Who has fed you this this line?
Why do you imagine that your ideology is an accurate guide to what unbelievers think? You're behaving exactly like a Christian asking an atheist "Why do you imagine that Satan will protect you from God's judgement? Who has fed you this line?"

Cooperatives can exist just fine without dictators. The capitalist world is full of them.

The regimes you point to were not socialism in the first place. They were not democratic.
Who said they were? They are what happens when socialists are given the authority to try to build an economy around the better aspects of human nature. The circumstance that socialists deliver something other than what they promise isn't a point in favor of giving them that power again.

Today, our system of billionaire rule is failing us.
We are not ruled by billionaires. If we were ruled by billionaires we would not have a progressive income tax.

How do you propose to fix that? Got any ideas? Gerge Bernard Shaw had an entirely different model of socialism that yet has to be tried. The same for John Rawls. We are always existing on new ground.
Czechoslovakia got a communist government by voting it into power. They only got the coup d'etat and the dictator when they became inclined to vote it out of power.

I would hate to think it had reached its pinnacle in the likes of men like the Koch Brothers, the Waltons and Donald Rumsfeldt.

They are YOUR HEROES of predatory capitalism. A sorry bunch they are.:thinking:
Another of the aspects of human nature more base than self-interest is not giving a damn whether or not the things one says about members of one's outgroup are true. None of those people are my heroes. You didn't have a reason to think they are. That's just something you believe about the infidel because your religion tells you to. Rumsfeld is a criminal; the Waltons are lottery winners (and half of them aren't men); and I don't know a bloody thing about the Koch brothers, since I've never heard anything about them that wasn't rabid hate speech from a childish left-wing world view. My hero of predatory capitalism is Muhammad Yunus.
 
Why ask me? Why not ask the endless stream of people trying to emigrate from the U.S. into one of the remaining workers' paradises?

Heh, isn't this one of the ironies of the left's critique of the evil capitalist US? Shouldn't they be warning all would be immigrants, legal or not, to stay away from the corporate Wall Street controlled US? And our terrible, terrible, terrible income inequality? Instead, go to Venezuela where everything is wonderful!
 
To Simple Don, continued:

The law of supply and demand is fundamental to the study of market economics. If you do not accept that, I don't know what basis we have for discussing market economics at all. The subjective theory of value explains why the law of supply and demand works. It was formulated in the 1870's and, along with the principle of marginal utility made up the "marginalist revolution" that transformed economic thought. It underlies what we call "neo-classical" thought, and is accepted by every school of economics that I know of with the possible exception of the Marxists.

I am not arguing that supply and demand doesn't exist. I am arguing that supply and demand setting prices by driving the price down to the costs of the last product made, the marginal product, that this is not a powerful enough mechanism to allow the market to self-regulate largely independently of government regulation. This is your claim correct? That there can exist a free market independent of government regulation? This is how the free market believers tell us that the free market will be able to self-regulate, correct?

I have repeated this many times and you have not even come close to addressing it. Instead you go fly off into these wild monologues telling me what you think that I believe. I am trying to find out why you believe in marginal productivity and the quantity theory of money. These are theories that most of neoclassical economics has given up on. Not the least of the reasons for this is because marginal productivity, supply and demand driving prices to the costs of the marginal product, would not allow any profit in the sales of any of the production from a modern industrial economy. This is a big problem with marginal productivity. No profits, no investment.

This has nothing to do with my views of economics, I don't believe that there can be a self-regulating, self-organizing free market. But you say that you do and marginal productivity plays a major role in supporting the idea, the faith of the self-regulating free market.

This leads me to one of the possible explanations below.

You didn't understand marginal productivity and its place supporting the self-regulating free market. When you realized what a ridiculous idea that it is you decided to talk about anything and everything but it. That you said that you believe in marginal productivity simply because it has the magic word "marginal" in it from a the wonderful marginal revolution. You are hoping that you can keep baffling us with bullsh*t until I go away.

That you did understand the theory but you only read economics arguments that support the free market. You don't have any experience with the arguments against the theory. So you just kind of run out everything that you can think of hoping that something hits.

Or third, well I can't come up with a third possibility.​

So please explain to me why you believe in marginal productivity. Tell me what place it has in your self-regulating free market theory, why do you believe that it is valid.

Since you wrote so much I will respond to it, but it may not be up to my usual standards.

Fundamentally, the subjective theory of value says that a product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There is no objective factor, such as labor, that sets the value of a product or service. Since value is subjective, the only way that we can know the value of a product is through the market price. If we attempt to set prices through some agency we will get inefficient production and distribution. This phenomenon is well-known. We know that when the government imposes wage and price controls that we get shortages of some items and surpluses of others. The government then resorts to allocations or rationing and then black markets develop. So even neo-Keynesians are reluctant to propose wage and price controls.

Once again, you are drifting.

In the economy that we do have we don't have wage and price controls. In the real economy that we have today most prices are administrated, that is they are set by the producer of the product or services. This wasn't decided by the government, it is how the market chooses to set prices. It is how the capitalistic system that we have has evolved to set prices. I can imagine that the "no profit" thing is the major reason why the market didn't pick your supply and demand setting prices at the cost of the marginal product. It is just a guess.

But the interest rate is simply the price of money, and yet modern economists seem perfectly happy with the government manipulating the interest rate. There is no reason why we should expect that we will not get distortions in a government manipulated interest rate anymore than we would get economic distortions from the government manipulating the price of any other product or service. So we get bubbles, and we get busts, and we get bail-outs, and then new bubbles and maybe even lost decades like the Japanese have invented.

Drifting away. We just moved my parents into assisted living. We found an old record of theirs by Martin Denny. I bet that you are familiar with his music, it is kind of happy Hawaiian with lots of birds chirping. The album included a song about drifting away. See when I drift I don't go into economics.

This idea that the interest rate is the price of money is the loanable funds theory. It is bullsh*t. We can talk about it after we finally find out why you believe in another zombie theory, marginal productivity.

We now have zero interest rates, and we have bubbles in the stock market and the bond market and those bubbles are about to burst and we'll have yet another melt-down that may be so large that even the Fed won't be able to bail out the banks. But I have said all this before.

We have zero interest rates because we are trying to recover from the worse financial crisis and recession since the great depression bought on by idiots who believed that the financial markets could self-regulate. This is a ridiculous idea, a mistake that has been repeated through histoe at great costs to the nation. . That is what we are doing here, trying to figure out why anyone would believe such a ridiculous idea.

The point is that the government shouldn't interfere in the markets. When it does that, it creates dislocations which cause a misallocation of resources. Projects are begun which cannot be completed or are unprofitable when the are completed. That is what "free market economics" is all about.

It depends on what kind of an economy you want. As I see it the only advantage of the free market that you have been able to cite is that the government wouldn't be involved in it. But it seems to come at a high cost. The marginal productivity, no profit thing for example. Or the near refect competition thing that would force the break up of the large corporations. We gain a lot from the large corporations, economies of scale, large scale research, stability, self-financing, etc. It seems like a lot to give up to get rid of maybe 10,000 government regulators.

Does that mean that the government is incapable of drafting regulations regarding airline inspections that must necessarily be inferior to the regulations the airline companies themselves would draw up? No. There is nothing in the free market analysis that would support that claim. It simply isn't an issue that free market economics addresses. Personally, I think the point is well taken regarding the US as I can think of at least 3,000 who could be alive today if the government had not prohibited airline pilots from being armed and cockpits from being secure. And I believe that the lifting of that prohibition would do more to protect airline passengers than all those arrogant TSA agents combined. But that is only to argue that some government regulations are flawed. It is not an argument that all such regulations must be flawed and, in any case, it is not an economic argument.

But the free market didn't suggest that pilots be armed until after the 3,000 people had died. And now pilots can be armed if they want to be. Because of government regulations.

Who do you think writes the regulations that we have now? They are not written by the government, they are written by the interested parties. The regulations on aircraft inspections require that aircraft manufacturers write inspection procedures and that aircraft owners follow them. If they don't the FAA can fine the owners or even suspend the aircraft's air worthiness grounding one aircraft or all of a type. The main thing that would happen by taking the government out of it would be that there would be no enforcement in the process. The manufacturer can't enforce inspections, the aircraft owners are the manufacturers' customers,

So you remove the government who is going to do the enforcement of the requirements?

Continued later below ------------------
 
Bomb: We have a regressive income tax, not a progressive one. Maybe you better check your tax code (thousands of pages of tax loopholes for the wealthy and corporations). Buffet is taxed less than his secretary by his own admission.

Substantive.....a word you use because you seek to shunt substantive arguments with words that bring doubt to and to confuse the issue. Of course, only Bomb has "substance."

I can't blame you for feeling as you do. That is how you were trained to think. Sorry about that.:sadyes:
 
What happens to capitalism (as we know it and some here defend and promote it) when the scarcity that gave birth to it is replaced with the abundance that through its generation of wealth and innovation, capitalism will inevitably create?
 
If someone is selling jars of cyanide, I think a government regulation requiring that they be labeled as such is perfectly reasonable.

If the discussion would run true to the form of others that I have had with free market enthusiasts you would finally agree that about 98% of the current government regulations are reasonable. Just look up the recent thread here asking for examples of job killing regulations. The only one that any of the free market enthusiasts could come up with was the minimum wage, which as you are well aware depends on marginal productivity and full employment for a minimum wage increase to cost jobs, an impossible combination, especially since you seem to be unwilling or incapable of defending marginal productivity.

But the important point here is that including such issues in an economic argument is out of place. While such regulations may have incidental economic effects, their efficacy is not a matter that can be determined by economic argument. Such is not the case, of course, where the economic effects of regulations are more than just incidental as is the case, for example, with many environmental regulations. In that case, the trade-offs need to be addressed specifically. Still other regulations, while technically not economic, have been enacted primarily because of the economic effect. This is called crony capitalism.

I am not sure where this argument comes from. I am not arguing that government regulations are enacted for economic reasons. It is the free market enthusiasts that are arguing that government regulations should be evaluated on economic terms. How much do aircraft crashes really cost us? I mean the costs of the aircraft inspections really add up over time. And how many people would really die by eating cyanide out of a un-warning labeled bottle? At most we are talking about a few kids and the schools are so bad that they probably can't read the warnings anyway.

These kinds of arguments are what your people want, not me. In fact government regulations are pretty much written to protect third parties that don't profit from the simplistic economic transaction of buying or selling something, the people who are going to fly in the airplane or the people who have to drink the water or breathe the air after industry has used them to make their products.

No, regulations don't have a bearing on economics, they are enacted for reasons more complex than capitalism or the market can resolve. This is why they are left to the government, they are too complex for the simplistic mechanism of making a profit. This is one of the major reason why the idea of the market self-regulating is so ridiculous, one of a multitude of reasons why there will never be a self-regulating free market, in the very unlikely chance that it was even possible.

The cheapest, most economic labor available is slavery or child labor. But both carry high social costs so that they are ruled out for the economy.

Libertarians may argue against non-economic regulations, but they are generalizing beyond what any economic theory would require. Libertarianism is a political and ethical theory, not an economic theory.

Most libertarians that I have encountered are like you about economics, enthusiastically quoting Rothbard or Hayek or von Mises but quite unable to hold up even their end in the most general of discussions, much less to go into any details. The unfortunate problem is that the libertarian or Austrian economics isn't championed because of any real understanding of the economics itself but because it sounds as if it supports the political biases of the libertarian. We all know that the government can't do anything right, we have all had to stand in line at the DMV only to find out that we had the wrong form. It is not far from that to deciding that profit making companies not only can be trusted to regulate themselves but that they would probably do a better job than the government at running the country, right? It is not like they would take any advantages of the situation, would they?

The problem for all of us is that this ridiculous idea of the self-regulating free market is so widespread that people are making important, far reaching decisions as if there was some validity to it, as if it were possible. And it is causing a tremendous amount of economic damage, witness the Great Financial Crisis and Recession of 2008. Or the previously mentioned austerity during a recession.
 
What happens to capitalism (as we know it and some here defend and promote it) when the scarcity that gave birth to it is replaced with the abundance that through its generation of wealth and innovation, capitalism will inevitably create?

I seem to be the only defender of the economy as it stands now. Capitalism and the economy have given us so much. Unprecedented wealth, unlike any time in history. We live longer and better than any humans in history.

But we must reclaim the control of the economy from the wealthy and their minions that believe that the wealthy are entitled to an ever increasing portion of the nation's wealth and income. This is simply not true. There is no reason why the wealthiest country in the world should have so many poor. Poverty is nothing but an economic condition, too little money is being distributed to the poor. And there is absolutely no reason why the government should have to run programs to provide for the poor. We have to raise wages to the point that anyone who is working earns a reasonable wage.

And yes, this means that profits will be lower, increased wages come out of profits. Is there anyone here claiming that profits are too low, that we are suffering from too little money available for investment?

Capitalism is a very strong, a very robust economic system. It can handle the redistribution of money from the rich to the poor. We know how we changed the distribution of money to the wealthy 30 years ago, all we have to do is to reverse the process.

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I apologize for the massive amount of verbiage that I unleashed with Bill.
 
Imagine? If? We don't need to imagine it. We've seen what happens when anti-capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest.

Yes, what happens is that the stronger, more established capitalist economies step in to smash the fledgling system and reinstitute capitalistic policies.
Yes, the Bolsheviks overthrew the democratic socialist government of Russia in 1917 because of the capitalist intervention in 1918. Mao wasn't going to be a dictator until the Kuo Min Tang made him do it by advancing all the way out of the mainland and invading Taiwan. Seoul sneakily attacked North Korea by teleporting itself into the middle of the North Korean Army. And the fledgling democracy of the Khmer Rouge was smashed in 1978 by capitalist Viet Nam.

Socialism doesn't have to equal Stalinism or Maoism. hth
Socialism doesn't have to equal trying to build an economy around aspects of human nature anti-capitalists like better than self-interest -- people call all manner of civilized, pleasant, private-property-based, voluntary arrangements "socialism". So when socialists ask to be given the power to abolish private ownership of the means of production in order to try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest, and the power to make participation in their new system compulsory, I guess we should take it for granted that they're going to give us one of those pleasant arrangements, unless of course they tell us they're planning a police state.

Do you think the millions of socialists who put Lenin and Mao in power because they believed in them knew all along that they were going to get police states? No? Did that do them any good in the end? No? Did the universe regard their good intentions as grounds to exempt them from unintended consequences? No? Do you believe the universe holds more respect for your intentions than it held for theirs?

What is your definition of "socialism"?
 
Bomb: We have a regressive income tax, not a progressive one. Maybe you better check your tax code (thousands of pages of tax loopholes for the wealthy and corporations).
This has been debunked six ways to Sunday. Those loopholes make some regions of the income spectrum quite a bit less progressive than they are at face value, but they're still progressive.

Buffet is taxed less than his secretary by his own admission.
In the first place, that has no bearing on the argument, because Warren Buffett's secretary is rich too. Progressivity or regressivity among the top 10% of the population doesn't change the fact that billionaires are taxed at a higher rate than the bottom 90%, which would not be the case if they ruled the country.

And in the second place, Buffett is a special case. He routinely achieves a 15% to 20% annual return because he's such a rock star at making investment decisions. So a 3% inflation rate is small change to him. But for the average billionaire making 6% return like the rest of us, that 3% means only half their capital gain is real; the other half is fiction caused by the government inflating the currency. But they get taxed on both halves. So the nominal 20% capital gain tax rate is a real rate of about 24% for Buffett and a real rate of about 40% for the average billionaire.
 
When anti-capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human nature they like better than self-interest, the result is always a police state and usually a famine.
When fervent capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human self-interest, the result is typically a police state and usually a famine. Just compare the record of countries restructured by intervention by western idealists with those that managed to avoid such a fate.

The moral there is simply that building an economy isn't something you can do from a plan.
Your rule sounds plausible and your moral sounds spot on -- that it lets economies grow without being built from a plan is after all one of the great merits of capitalism -- but what historical examples are you referring to? Unless you count western Europe and Japan after WWII, when did fervent capitalists try to build an economy around aspects of human self-interest? Fervent capitalists usually just try to build companies, not whole economies.
 
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