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Billionaires Blast off

[stupid meme] that was probably created by one of the 47% of Americans not paying any federal income tax.

All the while Jeff Bezos (for example) paid almost a billion in federal income taxes over a five year period.
We can debate about what the tax system should be and how much taxes billionaires should pay and on what.
But to pretend (like Warren and other leftists do) that billionaires pay no taxes is very ignorant.
 
One of the biggest problems in the world today is that lots of people genuinely think that economic indices like the DJIA are indicative of the economic experience of most people.

Most people don't own shares, other than through pension and superannuation systems that they will not access until retirement. Their daily lives are only distantly related to the state of the share market, and typically that relationship is statistical - the Dow falls, and 1 in 10 loses his job and goes from OK to destitute, while 9 out of ten see no change at all. Recovery implies no change for the 90% too. Maybe that one guy gets his job back (unless it's been long enough that he is no longer presentable enough to do so; Living in your car or under a freeway overpass isn't conducive to looking your best at interviews).

The idea that you can look at a graph of the DJIA and say "everyone is better off today than they were six months ago" would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragically popular.

It's not that the DOW is a measure of the average man, but it is a good indication of the stock market--and thus of the wealth of the very rich.
 
Bomb#20 said:
Well, you're making it look like the problem is you know perfectly well that expecting politicians to solve the workers' grievances is a losing proposition, and self-help by collective bargaining is the actual way for workers to improve their lot, and yet you keep arguing for political solutions!
Collective bargaining is a political solution. In the USA, given the difficulty in starting a union ( a political problem), or even going on strike (another political problem - the gov't can and has called strikes against the national interest), a political solution is a reasonable expectation. What form that political solution takes is another matter.
I.e., interfering with collective bargaining is a political solution, (just a solution to somebody else's problem), one that creates a political problem for the workers. Hey, I've got nothing against political solutions to political problems. But collective bargaining itself is an economic solution to an economic problem.

Bomb#20 said:
When people who think like you get their way, and the government brings private employers to heel, and wages are set by government edict instead of across the bargaining table, wages stagnate for decades. ... Why would you expect them to get a better deal from a monopoly?
Can you point to a basis the above? I don't see DBT advocating making the gov't the employer and setting wages by edict. Which makes the above appear more like a straw man to me.
I was going to go hunt through old posts to find examples, but your post was #433; helpfully, in post #434 DBT argued in favor of minimum wage laws. :)
 
When someone trots out the libertardian rhetoric for tax rates (i.e. taxes = working for the government), you know rational discussion has left the room.
That's the figure of speech you had a problem with? Should we take it, then, that you regard "I, for one, am proud to have helped pay the tax burden of billionaires" as a case of rational discussion staying in the room?
IMO, it is less irrational/more rational than "working for the government", since the discussion is about the appropriate tax burden for billionaires. Clearly if one feels billionaires are not paying enough in taxes, then it is reasonable to think one is shouldering some of the billionaires' rightful burden.
:consternation2: The "working for the government" metaphor is at least fact-based: the government is actually measurably taking 20% of some billionaire's income. When someone trots out the "I'm paying billionaires' tax burden" metaphor, what facts does his claim that he's paying more than "appropriate" and billionaires are paying less than "appropriate" reference? How are "appropriate" quantities measurable?
 
To be clear, I do think that a public/private partnership could be viable and beneficial to both parties but It looks heavily tilted toward the benefit of the private party.

The government is benefitting greatly from having access to a much more affordable launch system. It looks like successful government investment to me.
 
Again, I think it's useful to point out that the ONLY novel accomplishment of any of these zillionaires' "great innovation" is a re-usable booster rocket.
None of them has equaled - let alone surpassed - what the private sector accomplished in 2004. Meanwhile, NASA has landed numerous Mars rovers, intercepted a comet, landed on an asteroid, flown by Saturn's moons, visited Pluto... all completely new and vital research vehicles from which those billionaires will profit as soon as we, the taxpayers, have paid enough to pave their way.

Has anybody proposed we do away with NASA? These projects are great, and having a more cost-effective launch system is freeing more of NASA funding for more such missions.
Seems like a win-win.
 
The US federal budget is $2.45 trillion.

$6.6T actually, but who's counting?
2020_US_Federal_Budget_Infographic.png

If we were to assume, for the sake of the argument, that this money is controlled by the congress, and each congressperson (including senators), controls an equal amount of it, that's about $8 billion per year. Of course a member of congress doesn't have an equal power to a senator, and I completely ignored the presidency, but let's entertain the idea to get a rough estimate of the upper limit of power that a political actor like AOC might have.

A Congress critter's power goes beyond just the budget. They also make laws, which is a major power.

Jeff Bezos makes that in a month. So even by the most outlandish estimate of Ocasio-Cortez's power converted to US dollars, she'd still be at least an order of magnitude below Bezos.

No, he does not. $8G per month is $96G per year. He is not making nearly that much per year, or his net worth would be a lot higher than the current $195G.

And again, you ignored all the considerable amount of non-budget power Congress wields in our system of government.
 
No but it's unlikely to be ideologically motivated. The IMF previously champoined the opposite view - that there is trade-off between productivity and inequality - but recanted due to the preponderance of evidence.
And? The IMF is no more immune to changes in ideology than any other organization. Intellectual fashions change like all fashions; and personnel are replaced.

A lot of things about the world economy have changed over the years; picking two and saying "This one is because of that one." is post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc. Where's the controlled experiment that shows making billionaires poorer increases GDP?

Not what the IMF says.
Okay, then what is it they mean by saying GDP growth has slowed because of increasing rich-poor income gaps? Normally that would mean if only we'd arranged for a smaller gap it would have stopped the growth from slowing -- i.e., it would have increased GDP. That's what it is to make a causality claim.
Well, there are two ways to arrange for a smaller gap: make the poor richer or make the rich poorer. But to say adding wealth to the poor increases GDP is practically a tautology: we don't need IMF economists to tell us that. So if the IMF is saying something substantive it seems it would have to be that subtracting wealth from the rich increases GDP.

The idea that convergence further down the global income distritbution (which wouldn't even be a thing without China) is a necessary corollary of the average American's loss of income share is zero-sum thinking 101.
So who the heck said it's a necessary corollary?
Whoever it is that keeps bringing it up in defence of within-country inequality, e.g. in the U.S. Unless they're bringing up an unrelated coincidence for reasons best known to themself.

There are any number of ways the average American could "lose income share" -- i.e., gain income not as fast as the average earthling -- without convergence further down. I'm just saying it's what actually happened over the last few decades.
Then it's unclear why you're just saying it.

Not to mention "in-group" favouritism.
How do you figure that? In-group favoritism is a matter of preference; opinions about whether X happened or about whether X was a necessary corollary of Y aren't matters of preference.
Fine. You appeared to be arguing that U.S. inequality with its consequences for average Americans, and the gains of Chinese workers were part of some process to the good of humanity. Turns out you were just tossing in some unrelated factoids.
The methods you use to make inferences about me are mystifying. Yes, of course I'm arguing U.S. inequality with its consequences for average Americans, and the gains of Chinese workers, are part of some process to the good of humanity. Duh! The process is outsourcing. Duh! The convergence was a corollary of outsourcing. Duh! But it's not a necessary corollary of the average American's "loss of income share", because there are alternate scenarios in which average Americans could have "lost income share" as well as scenarios in which they could have actually lost income, due to any number of causes other than outsourcing, that would not have caused convergence further down the global income distribution. Duh! A world-wide boycott of American goods, a Yellowstone supervolcano eruption, yada yada. Use your imagination. But those things didn't happen. Outsourcing happened. Duh!

So how the bejesus does my pointing out all this imply to you that the actual worldwide drop in inequality is an unrelated coincidence/factoid I just tossed in for reasons best known to myself? Your reasoning is mysterious.
 
Again, I think it's useful to point out that the ONLY novel accomplishment of any of these zillionaires' "great innovation" is a re-usable booster rocket.
None of them has equaled - let alone surpassed - what the private sector accomplished in 2004.
Huh? You mean Rutan's SpaceshipOne doing suborbital hops? Musk's Falcon 9 flew people into orbit!

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/s...-crew-international-space-station-2021-04-23/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Dragon_2#Crewed_flights
 
And? The IMF is no more immune to changes in ideology than any other organization. Intellectual fashions change like all fashions; and personnel are replaced.
Is this an empirically based conclusion, please share your data.
Okay, then what is it they mean by saying GDP growth has slowed because of increasing rich-poor income gaps? Normally that would mean if only we'd arranged for a smaller gap it would have stopped the growth from slowing -- i.e., it would have increased GDP. That's what it is to make a causality claim.
Well, there are two ways to arrange for a smaller gap: make the poor richer or make the rich poorer. But to say adding wealth to the poor increases GDP is practically a tautology: we don't need IMF economists to tell us that. So if the IMF is saying something substantive it seems it would have to be that subtracting wealth from the rich increases GDP.
No, it is saying if the poor's income increased at a faster rate than the rich's (which does not require subtraction of wealth from the rich), then GDP growth would have been faster.
 
Yeah, this whole business about ants co-operating, drinking water together while singing Kumbaya is a bit of a myth. Just ask any 10 year boy what he saw happen when he mixed a bunch of red ants and black ants together in a jar. Its a horror show. Ants decapitating and dismembering each other.

Communism/Socialism: “Great Idea. Wrong Species.” (E. O. Wilson)

So nothing needs to be done about inequality or exploitation? Let the rich and powerful exploit workers, own slaves, do whatever they like? Might is naturally right?

Nothing can be done? Nothing needs to be done? Everything is as it should be?
You've got it backwards. Communism is the might-makes-right economic system, not capitalism. Marx wasn't appealing to morality or equal sharing; he was telling people to seize the means of production because it was in their interest to. It was "The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win." -- it's not like he was telling the European workers to seize the factories and share out all the proceeds to all the poorer people in third world countries. He was telling the European workers to keep the factories for themselves -- and they could have done it too, of course, because there were no chains, of course, because no, the rich and powerful are not allowed to own slaves, of course, because slavery is immoral and capitalism is not a might-makes-right economic system, of course. Conversely, the communists ended up enslaving the workers in all the countries they took over -- and that was entirely predictable.

As far as exploitation goes, the socialist theory of exploitation is zero-sum-game reasoning, which is dead wrong. It's a mathematical certainty that the workers must be being exploited, so the theory goes, because the owners are getting more out than they put in. But in reality the workers are getting more out than they put in too, so by that criterion the workers must be exploiting the owners too. Everybody is exploiting everybody, and everybody benefits from all that mutual co-exploitation, because production is synergistic. So if you want to talk about exploitation as a problem, first cough up an explanation for how to recognize it that doesn't implicitly take for granted that economics is a zero-sum game, and then we can figure out how to address it.

As far as inequality goes, plenty is being done in capitalist countries. In the U.S. for instance, we have progressive income tax, social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare, food stamps, earned income tax credit, and socialized medicine. (Which the U.S. has, of course -- just the most inefficient and poorly designed socialized medicine system in the first world.) If some people want to do more than that about inequality and they think Bezos is being paid more than he's contributing to the rest of us, they're free to trade among themselves and cut him out of their deals.
 
(ants around a droplet)
...
Worker ants, like worker social insects more generally, don't have any incentive to freeload because they are not the reproducers in their groups. So they are much like body cells in a multicellular organism.
Yes, exactly. And that's what anybody who offers ants as a model for human societies is effectively advocating: treating each human as a mere means to an end rather than as an end in him or herself. We could cross rivers by building bridges out of drowned humans too if we chose to, but it's not a good idea.
 
Was the meme meant to be taken literally, or just convey the meaning that the super rich are not paying their share of tax?
I do not know what the author had in mind; I have to go by the actual words used.
Btw, whether they are "not paying their [fair] share of tax" is very subjective. What would be a fair share?
Buffett says that his class are not paying their due.
And what Buffett says is gospel?
We can debate how much they should be paying, but unless they are breaking the law, they are "paying their due", i.e. paying what they owe the government according to tax laws.
 
You've got it backwards. Communism is the might-makes-right economic system, not capitalism.
(similar nonsense snipped for brevity)

Arguing from utopia for capitalism, but not Communism. How convenient.
 
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