Billionaires who are on the run

[Harry Bosch]

As an aside, the US remains a great manufacturer. We're only 4.25% of the worlds population. And yet, we manufacture 16.8% of the world's goods. Sure, China is the largest, we're only number 2. But they have 4 times our population.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/02/countries-manufacturing-trade-exports-economics/

And that only because you're counting physical goods but not services. We're still #1 if you count goods and services.

We count goods in our GNP that are really manufactured in China but sold in the US. Examples: Apple telephones and Nike shoes. If Apple makes a phone in China and sells it to you, is that really generating economic activity for the US? We also count GNP that is generated by our government (doctored stats now), we did not account like this 50 years ago.

Both governments and all the media lie so it is hard to tell. But if China is not already ahead of us they certainly are in the very near future.

Gosh, I don't know how many, but I'd bet there there are millions of Apple jobs in the US. I live in Oregon. There are more than 12,000 NIKE jobs in Oregon. They are all high salaried with great benefits.

 

[RVonse]

We count goods in our GNP that are really manufactured in China but sold in the US. Examples: Apple telephones and Nike shoes. If Apple makes a phone in China and sells it to you, is that really generating economic activity for the US? We also count GNP that is generated by our government (doctored stats now), we did not account like this 50 years ago.

Both governments and all the media lie so it is hard to tell. But if China is not already ahead of us they certainly are in the very near future.

Gosh, I don't know how many, but I'd bet there there are millions of Apple jobs in the US. I live in Oregon. There are more than 12,000 NIKE jobs in Oregon. They are all high salaried with great benefits.

That would be economic activity correctly accounted for in GNP. I do not say all the number was BS just a lot of it.

The fact that GNP and inflation are reported differently than they were 50 years ago should tell you something as well.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We count goods in our GNP that are really manufactured in China but sold in the US. Examples: Apple telephones and Nike shoes. If Apple makes a phone in China and sells it to you, is that really generating economic activity for the US? We also count GNP that is generated by our government (doctored stats now), we did not account like this 50 years ago.

Both governments and all the media lie so it is hard to tell. But if China is not already ahead of us they certainly are in the very near future.

Gosh, I don't know how many, but I'd bet there there are millions of Apple jobs in the US. I live in Oregon. There are more than 12,000 NIKE jobs in Oregon. They are all high salaried with great benefits.

That would be economic activity correctly accounted for in GNP. I do not say all the number was BS just a lot of it.

Well saying and demonstrating would be two completely things.

The fact that GNP and inflation are reported differently than they were 50 years ago should tell you something as well.

That inflation is rampant and we just don't notice it?

 

[funinspace]

We count goods in our GNP that are really manufactured in China but sold in the US. Examples: Apple telephones and Nike shoes. If Apple makes a phone in China and sells it to you, is that really generating economic activity for the US? We also count GNP that is generated by our government (doctored stats now), we did not account like this 50 years ago.

Both governments and all the media lie so it is hard to tell. But if China is not already ahead of us they certainly are in the very near future.

Gosh, I don't know how many, but I'd bet there there are millions of Apple jobs in the US. I live in Oregon. There are more than 12,000 NIKE jobs in Oregon. They are all high salaried with great benefits.

That would be economic activity correctly accounted for in GNP. I do not say all the number was BS just a lot of it.

I'm not sure why you are focusing on GNP over GDP, as they are different, and GNP is what it is. Yes, GNP includes those values from Apple, that was manufactured in China. But it isn't hidden or lied about. GDP doesn't do that.

The fact that GNP and inflation are reported differently than they were 50 years ago should tell you something as well.

You have said this a couple times...it would be nice if you would provide a reference to what ever you think is some big deal. Did something special happen in October 1971?

 

[funinspace]

Ok, that is kind of a strange rambling...and being short on time...just a few comments.

First some facts: US manufacturing started declining as a percentage of the US economy in the 1960's and accelerated in the 1970's.
Second, WTF did Clinton do that wasn't being done in the prior 12 years?

Clinton brought China into the World Trade Organization. Their administration endorsed free global trade but without any reflection of the absolute labor arbitrage between them and us. Better known as neo-liberal policy. This was great for the tycoons but threw the blue collar workers under the bus. There are many who think Clinton was corrupted by the PRC but since that can not be proven I will just say he was an over educated idiot that did not know any better. One does have to wonder though, why neo-liberals would have been surprised when industry went straight into China from the US and why they would not have stopped what they were doing. But this is where I blame both democrats and republicans.

First (and trivially) it was GWB and Congress that did the final deed that allow China to join the WTO, but Clinton and Congress did pave the way. And this was widely supported when it passed the House and Senate, so both parties get to share credit/blame. Personally, I think this 'issue' is largely a red herring. Secondarily, your eccentric tidbit on Clinton being corrupted by China tells me more about the strange and untrustworthy sites/sources you read, than the perceived issue at hand. And I never voted for Clinton, and always thought him to be more of a flashy used car salesman than anything else. It seems that so often you latch onto odd conspiracy theories that paint our presidents in strange colors to fit some XYZ narrative. In doing so, it seems that you make our presidents far more powerful than they really are.

Even if China hadn't gained WTO status, most of this low value labor would have just headed to other third world countries over the last 20 years, like Vietnam, Thailand, Philippines, Mexico, India, Indonesia, et.al.

So again, even if you think this is a bigly issue, it is Congress as much or more than the sitting president that makes this happen. And it is because Americans vote for these critters that this happens. It isn't nefarious, it isn't some secret plot, it is mostly ignorant voters. And much of it ties back to my comment on theocratic desires by people conned by the Repug party over a shifting list of BS (civil unions, gay marriage, abortion, prayer, crime, church rights and socialism) to vote for their guy who main intent is to regularly back big business and big money.

On Germany, I'd say there are 3 big things that Germany does differently than the US:
(1) UHC
(2) low military budget compared to GDP
(3) Quality universal education

Now which of our 2 parties much more strongly supports these 3 things? It is not a trick question, nor are the differences even close. Without the right wing BS on all 3 topics, the Democrats would be able to push much harder to get these ideas thru. However, without strong congressional support (aka electing Democratic representatives, it ain't going to happen. Are there currently Democratic congressional critters that are against these ideas? Of course there are. However, 99% of Repugs are against all 3.

I totally agree. In order to maintain strong manufacturing superiority it also takes strong socialist programs for the middle class. Because the only way the US can compete with lower labor in China is to make sure our labor can feed and house themselves at the lowest as possible cost. This is where I blame the red party.

Ok, so far by your thinking, we have 3 bad checks for Repugs and 1 shared bad check for both parties. Yet, you think they are both the same...sigh...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

AFAIK, there are not any tent cities and homeless in Beijing like there are in Los Angeles. Nor are there any Chinese dying because they can not afford a medication. Unlike the fed, the Chinese bank is national so their home prices are really caused by economic forces rather than low artificial interest rates to serve insiders.

I can't comment on Beijing because I haven't spent a lot of time there. It's also awfully far north for much in the way of homelessness. I have seen homeless in Shanghai. There's no way the government would tolerate a tent city, the homeless mostly stay out of sight.

And there are most certainly Chinese dying for the lack of medicine. The insurance system only covers the basic stuff, you need something expensive and you're on your own.

As for home prices--why in the world do you think the "Chinese bank" being national means it's not subject to insider pressure? That's a far greater concern in a system without our checks and balances! And I don't know what you mean by "the" "Chinese bank"--there are many banks there.

From the outside, most sources make the claim typical mainland Chinese are happy and satisfied with leadership. But with a legacy dictatorship in place who really knows what they think?

I see no way to know what people really feel.

Loren, as someone with more experience than most (having been there often) what do you believe would happen if Xi actually had to face a free election? Would he win by a landslide, would he just barely win (like Biden/Trump), or would he lose by a landslide?

No idea--Chinese politics is a subject you don't talk about, even in private with relatives. Those few relatives I can actually talk with immediately change the topic if it drifts towards anything remotely related to Chinese politics. (This inside private residences, not hotel rooms that might be bugged.) I don't know how much of the fear is legitimate, but it certainly is there. (An incident to illustrate--35 years ago, USA, my not-yet-wife and I were both living in a house owned by a professor. Said professor was having some sort of minor political event--and my not-yet-wife was scared to simply be near anything political and couldn't accept my assurances that it was safe here.)