Bringing back US industry - Why wouldn't this work?

[Loren Pechtel]

And how does this not just drive business to foreign manufacturers?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

And how does this not just drive business to foreign manufacturers?

In Libertopia all unfair advantages are accounted for and taxed in precise balance so that true competition can occur. So the location of the manufacturing plant is inconsequential.

 

[steve_bank]

This has been answered by a number of studies. With automation and the dominance of cheap throw awy goods the old jobs that paid good living wages for 30 years are gone.

I saw it start in the early 80s in my first engineering job.

The general term is 'work simplification'. Reducng skill levels and increasing production efficney. I was alws part of my job.

It is not just factory workers. Drafting used to be a well paying job. Today engineers do their own drawings on a computer. The whole manufacturing and corporate supported unfractured is largely gone. Document control replaced by cheap servers and PDFs. The MS Office Suite did a lot to simplify tasks and reduce labor. Presentations that took a team weeks to prepare are done in a day or two.

What used to take a team of engineers can be done with one or two using computer tools.

The rise of electric vehicles is having an impact. They are much less complicated to assemble.

China went through it. Initially it was cheap labor that kept manufacturing costs down. They ran into the same problem and switched to large scale automation. Literally city sized high tech complexes for manufacturing. FOXCON.

Along list. It really comes down to the rise of dirt cheap electronics and computers all around.

In our system wages fluctuate in accordance with supply and demand. Les skill required, more people available to do a job, wages go down.

The question is what will be done about the wealth inequity. Back in the 50s the idea was that manufacturing technology was going to gives us more time at the level of middle class wealth. Today we do not need to work so many hours to produce what we need plus amenities.

The system has to change, or events will change the system. As more people work more hours and are unable to afford living space and health care eventually there will be a response. We see it I France periodically on a small scale.

 

[barbos]

I agree, we are overdue for a major overhaul o af whole thing. For all intents and purposes we are about to have communism.
Instead they invent more and more bullshit jobs.

 

[steve_bank]

I agree, we are overdue for a major overhaul o af whole thing. For all intents and purposes we are about to have communism.
Instead they invent more and more bullshit jobs.

We are not on the verge of communism. Perish the thought, despite the republican fear mongering of democrats.

The Soviets claimed full employment. One job was an escalator monitor in a train station….communism at least based on the modern attempts is not an acceptable alternative.

It will require a partial restructuring of the economic system and some limits on what has been freewheeling unrestrained capitalism. Retain risk-ward and entrepreneurship while making sure everybody gets a meaningful share of the wealth.

 

[RVonse]

It will require a partial restructuring of the economic system and some limits on what has been freewheeling unrestrained capitalism.

How can that happen without bringing back the guillotines? The plutocracy will never let that happen. Good luck asking them to stop acting like pigs.

I also dissagree with you about the technology. Yes technology eliminates jobs. But no, we still dont want China to control and manage the high value manufacturing. Even if the plants have no human workers, they are extremely valuable because they create real wealth from raw inputs. The US needs to figure how to get that back. The factories were lost through corrupt human agency and they shall come back the same way. Even if the factories have nothing but robots, there is wealth to pay local governments from goods produced. The government has tremendous power and influence to do so, both through taxation and its powers to strip a corporation of its charter to even exist.

I believe the plutocracy will allow manufacturing to come back as long as they understand it is in their best interest. They will let that happen long before they let the government take money directly out of their pockets.

 

[RVonse]

And how does this not just drive business to foreign manufacturers?

In Libertopia all unfair advantages are accounted for and taxed in precise balance so that true competition can occur. So the location of the manufacturing plant is inconsequential.

Exactly correct. And extremely relevant to the prosperity of the country who hosts the industry.

 

[steve_bank]

It will require a partial restructuring of the economic system and some limits on what has been freewheeling unrestrained capitalism.

How can that happen without bringing back the guillotines? The plutocracy will never let that happen. Good luck asking them to stop acting like pigs.

I also dissagree with you about the technology. Yes technology eliminates jobs. But no, we still dont want China to control and manage the high value manufacturing. Even if the plants have no human workers, they are extremely valuable because they create real wealth from raw inputs. The US needs to figure how to get that back. The factories were lost through corrupt human agency and they shall come back the same way. Even if the factories have nothing but robots, there is wealth to pay local governments from goods produced. The government has tremendous power and influence to do so, both through taxation and its powers to strip a corporation of its charter to even exist.

I believe the plutocracy will allow manufacturing to come back as long as they understand it is in their best interest. They will let that happen long before they let the government take money directly out of their pockets.

A cursory review of history says it will happen catastrophically or something new, controlled reasoned change.

The two major issues right now are health care and housing costs. Rent control ideas are being floated here in Seattle.

Supply and demand along with free enterprise works well as advertised for commodities like computers and TVs. Reduces cost.

Real estate speculation unrestricted is having a sever effect here in Seattle. Back in the 80s large numbers of Californians who's homes had made ridiculous gains in values sold ther hoses and stared buying in Portland and Seattle driving up what was once a generally affordable housing market.

Within sight of where I live in Seattle is a new 20 story condo building under construction. It has caused some response because the condos running from $850k to $1.2m have been bought out mostly by Chinese investors. Who knows where the prices will end up before somebody actually moves in.

Addressing housing and medical along with establishing a baseline income will go a long way. It is doable. The main hurdle is conservative thinking that we are still in the 19th century where most anything goes and people on the bottom just went off and died if they failed, got sick, or injured.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This has been answered by a number of studies. With automation and the dominance of cheap throw awy goods the old jobs that paid good living wages for 30 years are gone.

I saw it start in the early 80s in my first engineering job.

The general term is 'work simplification'. Reducng skill levels and increasing production efficney. I was alws part of my job.

Yup, that's been just about my entire career. The jobs don't require brains anymore, they don't pay like jobs that require brains.

 

[RVonse]

Within sight of where I live in Seattle is a new 20 story condo building under construction. It has caused some response because the condos running from $850k to $1.2m have been bought out mostly by Chinese investors. Who knows where the prices will end up before somebody actually moves in.

Easily solved by the correct tax structure. Live and work in Seattle, your property taxes are low. Dont live/work there and your property taxes are very high. Problem solved.

(I should be a government official of Seattle)

 

[steve_bank]

Within sight of where I live in Seattle is a new 20 story condo building under construction. It has caused some response because the condos running from $850k to $1.2m have been bought out mostly by Chinese investors. Who knows where the prices will end up before somebody actually moves in.

Easily solved by the correct tax structure. Live and work in Seattle, your property taxes are low. Dont live/work there and your property taxes are very high. Problem solved.

(I should be a government official of Seattle)

People around the new Seattle waterfront park to be built are being taxed heavily to pay for because it will raise property values. People elsewhere in the city are not taxed. Seattle financially is out of control.

I'd have to work up a number but over the last 10 years the amount of money spent per homeless person is very high while the problem worsens.

As some are beginning to realize it would have been cheaper to just build housing, which is starting to happen.

To get elected in Seattle you need to be on the progressive side. Pragmatists need not apply.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Within sight of where I live in Seattle is a new 20 story condo building under construction. It has caused some response because the condos running from $850k to $1.2m have been bought out mostly by Chinese investors. Who knows where the prices will end up before somebody actually moves in.

Easily solved by the correct tax structure. Live and work in Seattle, your property taxes are low. Dont live/work there and your property taxes are very high. Problem solved.

(I should be a government official of Seattle)

You just substantially raised rents for people living in Seattle.

 

[RVonse]

Within sight of where I live in Seattle is a new 20 story condo building under construction. It has caused some response because the condos running from $850k to $1.2m have been bought out mostly by Chinese investors. Who knows where the prices will end up before somebody actually moves in.

Easily solved by the correct tax structure. Live and work in Seattle, your property taxes are low. Dont live/work there and your property taxes are very high. Problem solved.

(I should be a government official of Seattle)

You just substantially raised rents for people living in Seattle.

You aren't looking at the long view. The Chinese investors will have to pull out en-mass causing prices to plummet to levels even the locals can afford. Only the local landlords (those still living in Seattle) will be left standing. And those guys won't be affecting the price levels so heavily.

 

[ZiprHead]

Here in our city, if you want to keep a residence unoccupied, you have to buy a permit. I wonder if such a system would work in your case. Make the permit fees progressive and quite excessive based on the property value. Make them so steep on the million dollar plus investment properties to either deter the investment or make them actually rent them at rates people can afford.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Within sight of where I live in Seattle is a new 20 story condo building under construction. It has caused some response because the condos running from $850k to $1.2m have been bought out mostly by Chinese investors. Who knows where the prices will end up before somebody actually moves in.

Easily solved by the correct tax structure. Live and work in Seattle, your property taxes are low. Dont live/work there and your property taxes are very high. Problem solved.

How did you just solve anything, you just tanked tax income. Do roads no longer need to be paved if people who work in Seattle, live in Seattle?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Within sight of where I live in Seattle is a new 20 story condo building under construction. It has caused some response because the condos running from $850k to $1.2m have been bought out mostly by Chinese investors. Who knows where the prices will end up before somebody actually moves in.

Easily solved by the correct tax structure. Live and work in Seattle, your property taxes are low. Dont live/work there and your property taxes are very high. Problem solved.

How did you just solve anything, you just tanked tax income. Do roads no longer need to be paved if people who work in Seattle, live in Seattle?

Washington still has taxes! They have a pretty high sales tax, offset by small property taxes. Their business taxes are also far less than what is found in Oregon. Oregon has instituted at tax on gross revenue (gross, not on net). Totally unfair. Moved my company to Washington. Washington taxes are friendlier to business. Plus very nice to locate closer to ski resorts!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How did you just solve anything, you just tanked tax income. Do roads no longer need to be paved if people who work in Seattle, live in Seattle?

Washington still has taxes!

I don't know if RVonse is speaking directly to Washington/Seattle's taxing setup. I thought he was speaking more in general. And yes, a state still has taxes, but if you reduce taxation somewhere local, that will affect services without retaining that tax from somewhere else.

Akron, Ohio is a city that is trying to readjust to being a smaller city these days, and needs every dime it can scrape up because Columbus keeps cutting taxes (aka revenue for cities) and keeps giving the cities (aka the state revenue generators) less and less. Our state taxes keep going down, but my local taxes (property and income) have been going up.

 

[RVonse]

Within sight of where I live in Seattle is a new 20 story condo building under construction. It has caused some response because the condos running from $850k to $1.2m have been bought out mostly by Chinese investors. Who knows where the prices will end up before somebody actually moves in.

Easily solved by the correct tax structure. Live and work in Seattle, your property taxes are low. Dont live/work there and your property taxes are very high. Problem solved.

How did you just solve anything, you just tanked tax income. Do roads no longer need to be paved if people who work in Seattle, live in Seattle?

The Chinese investors are not needed to pave roads. Every other municipality manages roads without the help of sky high valuations caused by Chinese investors bidding up property they really don't need. Seattle would get by just fine with local tax revenue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You just substantially raised rents for people living in Seattle.

You aren't looking at the long view. The Chinese investors will have to pull out en-mass causing prices to plummet to levels even the locals can afford. Only the local landlords (those still living in Seattle) will be left standing. And those guys won't be affecting the price levels so heavily.

Drive prices down like that and nobody will build more. It's the same thing we always see with rent control no matter how you try to dress it up.

 

[steve_bank]

Rent control failed in NYC. Rent went up for improvements and when people moved out. People just handed it over to kids maintain possession.