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Britain Considering Leaving the EU

I definitely think Europe's nations needs to come to general agreement, but that agreement needs to be comprehensive and not this crazy payday loans to southern nations game they are playing. A lot of things would work better with less trade, less shopping for cheap labor, less transportation of things that do not need to be transported. I wish I could believe in the European Union, but it clearly is a system that discriminates against some of its members. Britain is a classic robber baron state. It even still has the absolute anachronism of a queen that is crowned in a church. Stop to think about it, Netherlands is about the same. Maybe they belong together in a union of Aristrocracies. They could always reach out to Japan.;)
 
I wish I could believe in the European Union, but it clearly is a system that discriminates against some of its members.

Ironically though, it's the countries that complain the most about being discriminated against (UK) that actually benefit from positive discrimination.

Britain is a classic robber baron state. It even still has the absolute anachronism of a queen that is crowned in a church. Stop to think about it, Netherlands is about the same.

Well first of all, we have a king now, not a queen. Secondly, the king doesn't really have any power. I'm not exactly a fan of the monarchy, but the criticisms leveled against European monarchies are rarely particularly valid. Besides, the Dutch are an inherently stubborn people. We used to be the only real republic in the world when everyone else was a kingdom or empire. Now, almost everyone is a republic, so we're bloody well going to be a monarchy. Besides, the Netherlands and the UK are hardly the only monarchies in Europe. There's also Belgium, Luxembourg, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, and Denmark. Finally, a head of state is just inherently cooler when he has 51 titles instead of 1 (Yep, our monarch has 51 titles of nobility)

Maybe they belong together in a union of Aristrocracies. They could always reach out to Japan.;)
 
I definitely think Europe's nations needs to come to general agreement, but that agreement needs to be comprehensive and not this crazy payday loans to southern nations game they are playing. A lot of things would work better with less trade, less shopping for cheap labor, less transportation of things that do not need to be transported. I wish I could believe in the European Union, but it clearly is a system that discriminates against some of its members. Britain is a classic robber baron state. It even still has the absolute anachronism of a queen that is crowned in a church. Stop to think about it, Netherlands is about the same. Maybe they belong together in a union of Aristrocracies. They could always reach out to Japan.;)

Britain is also a nation of Payday loans though its Royalty is largely symbolic but good for international relations. Cheap labour coming into the UK undermines the wages of existing workers. Why now ask British people (of all ethnic groups) who pay a mortgage with Eastern Europeans who crowd into a cheap room and work for a fraction of the cost to enrich their employers and drive others out of work. We forget the human rights of British citizens. Do we really think that hotels would stop making the beds if there were no foreign workers in the country? Do we really think there would be no nannies and casual labour. It just means the businesses would just have to pay a fair market rate, not suppressed by unfair competition.

Britain can take in foreign staff on a work visa and a contract must be signed before they are allowed to work.

Indian Immigration Law http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/employment-visa-requirements.html
Foreigners hired shall not exceed 1 per cent of the workforce. An English law like this would be called racist



China has a migration policy within China to prevent tens of millions converging on the capital. India


Egypt:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...riminalize-euhr-nccpim-human-trafficking.html

CAIRO — Youm7 newspaper reported April 26 that the Egyptian government was about to discuss a draft migration law that, if approved, would see irregular migrants — including refugees and asylum seekers fleeing conflict zones — imprisoned for between 15 and 20 years for attempted “illegal immigration.”

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...r-nccpim-human-trafficking.html#ixzz3biSQ0baN
 
Indian Immigration Law http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/employment-visa-requirements.html
Foreigners hired shall not exceed 1 per cent of the workforce. An English law like this would be called racist

Unsurprisingly, so would the Indian law. Or bigoted is the more appropriate term since it isn't specifically aimed against race.


Egypt:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...riminalize-euhr-nccpim-human-trafficking.html

CAIRO — Youm7 newspaper reported April 26 that the Egyptian government was about to discuss a draft migration law that, if approved, would see irregular migrants — including refugees and asylum seekers fleeing conflict zones — imprisoned for between 15 and 20 years for attempted “illegal immigration.”


...

......

......... what could possibly possess you to imagine that's a good example to pull out for trying to justify the UK limiting immigration? Do you WANT to be in the same category of countries that imprison people for 20 years because they committed the horrible crime of fleeing a warzone?
 
Egypt:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...riminalize-euhr-nccpim-human-trafficking.html

CAIRO — Youm7 newspaper reported April 26 that the Egyptian government was about to discuss a draft migration law that, if approved, would see irregular migrants — including refugees and asylum seekers fleeing conflict zones — imprisoned for between 15 and 20 years for attempted “illegal immigration.”


It illustrates how reasonable we in Britain are on immigration. I am not aware that UK immigration policy is aimed at race but it illustrates that India tries to protect its workforces. Of course I don’t see British workers flocking to India for a job.

If the UK implemented what has been proposed in Egypt we would most likely run out of prison space. The prisons would be so crowded, the inmates would be sleeping on top of each other.
 
It illustrates how reasonable we in Britain are on immigration.

The fuck it does. The UK has the most unreasonable views on immigration in all of Europe; there's not even a question. I mean you literally have government vans going around London shouting at illegals to go home or be arrested; that's pretty damn fucking uncivilized (not to mention hopelessly pointless and ridiculous) behavior. Pretending you have a reasonable immigration stance because hey 'at least we're not imprisoning war victims' is like a rapist pretending he isn't so bad because at least he's not also fucking kids.


I am not aware that UK immigration policy is aimed at race but it illustrates that India tries to protect its workforces. Of course I don’t see British workers flocking to India for a job.

You do, however, see them flocking to Europe for jobs and benefits. There's more Britons claiming benefits in the rest of the EU than the other way around. Not that you ever fucking hear the Brits acknowledge basic facts when they're bitching and moaning about immigrants. :rolleyes:
 
The fuck it does. The UK has the most unreasonable views on immigration in all of Europe; there's not even a question. I mean you literally have government vans going around London shouting at illegals to go home or be arrested; that's pretty damn fucking uncivilized (not to mention hopelessly pointless and ridiculous) behavior. Pretending you have a reasonable immigration stance because hey 'at least we're not imprisoning war victims' is like a rapist pretending he isn't so bad because at least he's not also fucking kids.


I am not aware that UK immigration policy is aimed at race but it illustrates that India tries to protect its workforces. Of course I don’t see British workers flocking to India for a job.

You do, however, see them flocking to Europe for jobs and benefits. There's more Britons claiming benefits in the rest of the EU than the other way around. Not that you ever fucking hear the Brits acknowledge basic facts when they're bitching and moaning about immigrants. :rolleyes:




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-in-UK-than-vice-versa-new-research-show.html


Almost 65,000 EU nationals are getting Jobseeker's Allowance (JSA) in the UK compared to around 30,000 Britons claiming unemployment benefits elsewhere in the EU.


Research by the Guardian found that while 14,880 Poles living in the UK are receiving JSA there are just two Britons claiming the equivalent in Poland.


The findings come after David Cameron said he wanted to ban foreign jobseekers claiming benefits and deport them from the UK if they do not find work within six months.


However the research suggests that under such a policy tens of thousands of unemployed Britains living overseas would also be forced to return to the UK.



Clearly a conflict of reports. Britain is soft on immigration policy. It is restricting any benefits for Europeans who come over to claim unemployment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...tion-much-higher-than-previously-thought.html

Britain has one of the largest Roma populations in western Europe as around 200,000 migrants have set up home in the country, a new study has found.

If this is true, who is going to pay to house them? The EU purse?
 
Why confuse the issue of EU membership with illegal immigration? The EU rules on freedom of movement are clear and simple:

- All EU citizens have the right to enter another EU country by virtue of having an identity card or valid passport.
- For stays of under 3 months, the only requirement on EU citizens and their family members who join or accompany them, is that they possess a valid identity document or passport.
- The right of residence for more than 3 months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:
- be workers or self-employed persons in the host country;
- or have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members, to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social assistance system of the host country during their stay and have
sickness insurance. EU countries may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;
- or be following a course of study, including vocational training, as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social assistance
system of the host country during their stay;
- or be a family member accompanying or joining an EU citizen who falls into one of the above categories.

- EU citizens and their family members acquire the right of permanent residence in the host country after a 5-year period of uninterrupted legal residence

What exactly is the problem that people are having with these rules? Remember, they are equally valid for Britons settling in another EU country, as many do! If Britain were to leave the EU, those people may well find themselves having to relocate back home or be stranded as illegal immigrants.

fG
 
Why confuse the issue of EU membership with illegal immigration? The EU rules on freedom of movement are clear and simple:

- All EU citizens have the right to enter another EU country by virtue of having an identity card or valid passport.
- For stays of under 3 months, the only requirement on EU citizens and their family members who join or accompany them, is that they possess a valid identity document or passport.
- The right of residence for more than 3 months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:
- be workers or self-employed persons in the host country;
- or have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members, to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social assistance system of the host country during their stay and have
sickness insurance. EU countries may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;
- or be following a course of study, including vocational training, as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social assistance
system of the host country during their stay;
- or be a family member accompanying or joining an EU citizen who falls into one of the above categories.

- EU citizens and their family members acquire the right of permanent residence in the host country after a 5-year period of uninterrupted legal residence

What exactly is the problem that people are having with these rules? Remember, they are equally valid for Britons settling in another EU country, as many do! If Britain were to leave the EU, those people may well find themselves having to relocate back home or be stranded as illegal immigrants.

fG

This is something to strive for but it is not an equal playing field. Should a hotel sack its English staff and then hire staff from a poorer country to maximise profits?
Then the taxpayer pays for the Briton's unemployment? The EU should be about raising the lower standards and not lowering the higher standards to meet those lower standards.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-in-UK-than-vice-versa-new-research-show.html

Almost 65,000 EU nationals are getting Jobseeker's Allowance (JSA) in the UK compared to around 30,000 Britons claiming unemployment benefits elsewhere in the EU.

Research by the Guardian found that while 14,880 Poles living in the UK are receiving JSA there are just two Britons claiming the equivalent in Poland.


Research by the Guardian. In other words, not real research. Also, even if it's true that there's more Europeans overall collecting benefits in the UK, it doesn't change the fact that proportionally, the number of UK citizens collecting benefits in rich European countries far exceeds that the other way around. Secondly, it also ignores the fact that EU immigrants collecting benefits in the UK represents only a small percentage of the immigrants collecting benefits... and the total number of immigrants collecting benefits in the UK is only a tiny drop in the bucket compared to native Britons collecting benefits. All the bitching about immigrants collecting benefits is nothing more than empty politics.

If you want to look at the actual figures, go here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...h-do-immigrants-really-claim-in-benefits.html

Immigration is a storm in a thimble. Completely irrelevant as anything other than something to dangle in front of the xenophobic Britons in order to get their votes.

But by all means, feel free to continue making yourself out to be another paranoid xenophobe worried about immigrants.
 
Also, those seriously concerned about Immigration to the UK might want to think again:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

"It says that European migrants made a net contribution of £20bn to UK public finances between 2000 and 2011. Those from the 15 countries which made up the EU before 2004, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain, contributed 64% – £15bn more in taxes than they received in welfare – while east European migrants contributed 12%, equivalent to £5bn more."

So... yeah. What'd you rather have? 20 billion pounds over 11 years, or the peace of mind gained from keeping those damned foreigners away? Your choice.
 
Also, those seriously concerned about Immigration to the UK might want to think again:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

"It says that European migrants made a net contribution of £20bn to UK public finances between 2000 and 2011. Those from the 15 countries which made up the EU before 2004, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain, contributed 64% – £15bn more in taxes than they received in welfare – while east European migrants contributed 12%, equivalent to £5bn more."

So... yeah. What'd you rather have? 20 billion pounds over 11 years, or the peace of mind gained from keeping those damned foreigners away? Your choice.

I quoted this response from MIGRANTWATCH earlier

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ost-Britain-3000-a-year-each-says-report.html


In fact, immigration between 1995 and 2011 cost the taxpayer more than £140 billion, or £22 million a day, after balancing what immigrants pay in tax with what they take out of Britain’s coffers by claiming benefits and tax credits, it said.
In 2011 alone the cost was £23 billion, or £3,000 each for the eight million foreign-born population, the group concluded. The sum was equal to the amount spent by the NHS on GPs and dentists in a year.
Sir Andrew Green, chairman of Migration Watch UK, said: “Our report finally disposes of the immigration lobby’s oft repeated claims that immigration reduces our tax burden.
“The total cost is high and increased dramatically between 1995 and 2011, providing no compensation for the overcrowding of this island which we are experiencing, largely as a result of immigration.”
MigrationWatch accused the authors of the UCL report, Prof Christian Dustmann and Dr Tommaso Frattini of the Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration, of burying a crucial figure in an annexe of their original report, published in November.
It was claimed the UCL study found the overall impact of immigration had been £95 billion but this “was not even mentioned in the text of the report”, said MigrationWatch.

It added that the omission was “truly astonishing”.
 
This is something to strive for but it is not an equal playing field. Should a hotel sack its English staff and then hire staff from a poorer country to maximise profits?
Then the taxpayer pays for the Briton's unemployment? The EU should be about raising the lower standards and not lowering the higher standards to meet those lower standards.

Your fears are not grounded in reality.

A recent report on immigration and unemployment shows the real situation:

---------------------------------------------------

Immigration to Britain has not increased unemployment or reduced wages, a major new study has concluded.

Researchers at the London School of Economics looked at the levels of immigration to each of Britain’s counties, and compared it to the unemployment rate in the same area across the same period.

They found that there was no connection between how much immigration a county had seen between 2004 and 2012 and the area’s level of unemployment.

The study also looked at whether migrants coming to an area had led to a fall in wage levels and found no evidence that this was the case.

Many areas that saw huge increases in immigration had seen wages rise and unemployment fall, while many areas which had seen no immigration had suffered from falling wages and rises in employment.

On average, immigration had a neutral effect on the employment and wage rates – neither increasing nor decreasing them.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-or-reduced-wages-study-finds-10075047.html

fG
 
This is something to strive for but it is not an equal playing field. Should a hotel sack its English staff and then hire staff from a poorer country to maximise profits?
Then the taxpayer pays for the Briton's unemployment? The EU should be about raising the lower standards and not lowering the higher standards to meet those lower standards.

Your fears are not grounded in reality.

A recent report on immigration and unemployment shows the real situation:

---------------------------------------------------

Immigration to Britain has not increased unemployment or reduced wages, a major new study has concluded.

Researchers at the London School of Economics looked at the levels of immigration to each of Britain’s counties, and compared it to the unemployment rate in the same area across the same period.

They found that there was no connection between how much immigration a county had seen between 2004 and 2012 and the area’s level of unemployment.

The study also looked at whether migrants coming to an area had led to a fall in wage levels and found no evidence that this was the case.

Many areas that saw huge increases in immigration had seen wages rise and unemployment fall, while many areas which had seen no immigration had suffered from falling wages and rises in employment.

On average, immigration had a neutral effect on the employment and wage rates – neither increasing nor decreasing them.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-or-reduced-wages-study-finds-10075047.html

fG

A similar report from UCL was well propagated but is fruit from the poisonous tree. See my earlier post.

This omits to mention zero-hours contracts which remind me of the third world casual market

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-23573442


Q: What are zero-hours contracts?

A: Zero-hours contracts, or casual contracts, allow employers to hire staff with no guarantee of work.
They mean employees work only when they are needed by employers, often at short notice. Their pay depends on how many hours they work.
Some zero-hours contracts require workers to take the shifts they are offered, while others do not.
Sick pay is often not included, although holiday pay should be, in line with working time regulations.

and


Q: Who is on them?

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) says that 697,000 people were employed on zero-hours contracts for their main job between October and December 2014, based on figures from the Labour Force Survey. That represents 2.3% of the UK workforce.

This figure is higher than the figure of 586,000 (1.9% of people in employment) reported for the same period in 2013. The ONS said it was unclear how much of the rise was due to greater recognition of the term "zero-hours contracts", rather than new contracts being offered.

The number of contracts that do not guarantee a minimum number of hours was 1.8 million as of August 2014. That was 400,000 more than the previous estimate for January 2014.

The ONS said the differences in the two totals could reflect seasonal factors, because they cover different times of the year.


See WIKI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour_contract#United_Kingdom

In 2011, zero-hours contracts were prevalent in many parts of the UK economy:[15]
in the hotels and restaurants sector, 19% of all workplaces (up from 4% in 2004)
in the health sector, 13% (up from 7%)
in the education sector, 10% (up from 1%)


So someone once unemployed but getting occasional work can be classified as in work
 
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A similar report from UCL was well propagated but is fruit from the poisonous tree. See my earlier post.

What interest would the London School of Economics have in distorting the data? This is a prestigious university, not a single-focus political lobby group like MigrationWatch.

This omits to mention zero-hours contracts which remind me of the third world casual market (snip)

How do zero-hours contracts relate to immigration? Do you have any data at all?

fG
 
And as I've explained, in exchange being part of the European single market and the enormous trade benefits that brings, those countries are subject to European economic laws and regulations without representation. That is the price they pay.

Just to be clear, you're saying that the legal burden of being a member of the European Economic Area is identical to the legal burden of being a full member of the EU?

Those in the UK who want to leave want to leave because they think the EU takes too much of their sovereignty. What you and they seem to not understand is that leaving can *only* result in one of two scenarios: Economic decline as the UK becomes fully sovereign... or maintain its economic access and actually give up more sovereignty than it would by staying in the EU.

I think what they want to do is reduce their participation in the EU to economic only. So, keep economic and trade agreements, but ditch the 'ever-closer union' in terms of political and legal constraints. Obviously in some cases those aren't separable. You can't have free trade with the EU without adopting their minimum standards, their import export regulations, and so on. But that still leaves a lot.

Secondly, the EU will almost certainly not agree to negotiate with the UK on equal terms.

It's a difficult situation. On the one hand, the EU has a lot that the UK wants, including valuable markets, economic ties, police cooperation, political influence, etc. and so on. On the other hand, the UK has a lot that the EU wants, including a healthier economy, and international links. A break up would be bad for both. We can argue about who it would be worse for, but having one of the world's largest economies leave your club is not a good thing by any measure, and nor is declaring your most immediate geographic and economic neighbours impossible to work with.
Indeed, that is what they publically say. You'll note concerns over an EU exit were also mentioned in the article; and indeed one would have to be quite gullible to just blindly trust what the bank says publically as to their reasoning.

They're leaving for tax reasons, because most of their business is in the Far East and is growing faster, and because HQ functions employ a lot of admin staff who are much cheaper over there. It doesn't have anything to do with recent politics, or the EU.

The DEUTCHE BANK has only CONSIDERED leaving as you mention and no decisions have been made on this as shown here.

Right; because the UK hasn't actually left the EU yet. :rolleyes:

The fact that they're telling you they're considering leaving if the UK *does* leave, though, is incredibly telling.

It's really not. They considered leaving when the EERM broke down, when the UK didn't adopt the Euro, when the EBA was founded, and a few other times besides. The problem is that all the expertise, and all their colleagues, are in London, not Frankfurt. There have been any number of predictions of banks all moving to Frankfurt, but they can't. The staff don't want to go. Those who do go are desperate to return. Even the EBA in increasing it's presence in London. London is a global financial centre, Frankfurt isn't. Moving to Luxembourg would make more sense.

Such a major financial institution leaving also tarnishes London's position as a financial center power, which will have many unforeseeable ripple-effects.
Very slightly. It's a lot worse for Deutsche Bank than it is for London.

If the UK leaves, it will instantly lose access to the single market. It would have to re-negotiate access in order to gain that same sort of privileged trading relationship that Norway and Switzerland have... and the EU has absolutely nothing to gain from giving the UK that for free.

It gains a fair amount actually. Free trade is mutually beneficial, it's not a favour you grant to people you like.

Again; Norway is an economic vassal state of the EU.

No, that's not a fair way to describe the trading relationship.
 
I quoted this response from MIGRANTWATCH earlier

And I already told you that migrantwatch is a right-wing astroturf group that isn't credible. It plays with data by twisting and omission in order to advance its poorly hidden agenda.

No it is not.
Not every one who is against illegal and high immigration is left wing.

How is finding an omission in the main part of the report of vital data from the main body of a report being right wing.
You are referring to an allegation not an established fact. It works with all parties.
Frank Field is a Labour MP mentioned in the quote is a Labour MP hence left wing to some degree.


Straight from WIKI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MigrationWatch_UK


MigrationWatch's website,[9] which is archived in the UK Web Archive,[10] contains a range of briefing papers to support the organisation's perspective on the statistical, legal economic and historical aspects of migration, and on topics such as the European Union, housing, health and social cohesion, as they relate to immigration.[11] MigrationWatch also conducts research for the Cross Party Group on Balanced Migration, co-chaired by Frank Field MP and Nicholas Soames MP, provides secretarial and administrative support for them and created, financed and updates the group's website.[12][13]

A regular commentator on immigration and asylum matters in the British media. Lord Green is frequently quoted or interviewed and writes numerous articles for the major daily newspapers including right-of-centre newspapers such as the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, Daily Express and Daily Star.[14][15] He has also written for The Times[16] and for guardian.co.uk, the website of the liberal-left newspaper The Guardian.[17] A 2005 Demos publication states that Andrew Green was quoted on the topic of asylum at least once a week in the Daily Express and Daily Star, starting from early 2003.[15] Green also featured prominently in the BBC's "asylum day" coverage of the topic in 2003.[18]

Bernhard Gross, Kerry Moore and Terry Threadgold of the Cardiff School of Journalism, Media and Cultural Studies at Cardiff University have criticised the broadcast media's use of MigrationWatch to 'balance' reports on immigration. In a study of broadcast coverage of the issue of asylum, they state:


It is clear from our interviews with broadcast journalists that taking 'too soft a left, liberal' approach to asylum is seen as contradicting everything they believe about the values of objectivity and impartiality. This explains why one television editor told us that "perhaps the Mail and the Express had got it right". This anxiety about taking a position seen to be supportive of asylum seems to produce an over-compensation in terms of using easily accessible right-wing sources such as Migration Watch UK as a 'balance'. The whole idea of 'balance' in these contexts needs to be re-thought and re-imagined. There are never just two sides to any story and two negative sides do not add up to ‘balance’. Journalists do not seem at present to know where else to go with this issue.[19]

Similarly, in February 2013, Migration Matters, an organisation chaired by Labour MP Barbara Roche and co-chaired by Conservative MP Gavin Barwell, criticised the BBC for treating Migration Watch's analysis as politically neutral.[20]

A website launched in February 2011 with the aim of allowing users to identify so-called churnalism revealed the extent to which newspapers such as the Daily Mirror, Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Times copy and paste from Migration Watch press releases in articles on migration.[21]

In October 2011, Andrew Green started a petition on the UK government's e-petitions website, calling on the government "to take all necessary steps to get immigration down to a level that will stabilise our population as close to the present level as possible and, certainly, well below 70 million".[22] When the petition closed on 20 October 2012, it had attracted 145,536 signatures.[23]


Migration Watch also conducts research for the Cross Party Group on Balanced Migration, co-chaired by Frank Field MP and Nicholas Soames MP, provides secretarial and administrative support for them and created, financed and updates the group's webs
 
Just to be clear, you're saying that the legal burden of being a member of the European Economic Area is identical to the legal burden of being a full member of the EU?

Those in the UK who want to leave want to leave because they think the EU takes too much of their sovereignty. What you and they seem to not understand is that leaving can *only* result in one of two scenarios: Economic decline as the UK becomes fully sovereign... or maintain its economic access and actually give up more sovereignty than it would by staying in the EU.

I think what they want to do is reduce their participation in the EU to economic only. So, keep economic and trade agreements, but ditch the 'ever-closer union' in terms of political and legal constraints. Obviously in some cases those aren't separable. You can't have free trade with the EU without adopting their minimum standards, their import export regulations, and so on. But that still leaves a lot.

Secondly, the EU will almost certainly not agree to negotiate with the UK on equal terms.

It's a difficult situation. On the one hand, the EU has a lot that the UK wants, including valuable markets, economic ties, police cooperation, political influence, etc. and so on. On the other hand, the UK has a lot that the EU wants, including a healthier economy, and international links. A break up would be bad for both. We can argue about who it would be worse for, but having one of the world's largest economies leave your club is not a good thing by any measure, and nor is declaring your most immediate geographic and economic neighbours impossible to work with.
Indeed, that is what they publically say. You'll note concerns over an EU exit were also mentioned in the article; and indeed one would have to be quite gullible to just blindly trust what the bank says publically as to their reasoning.

They're leaving for tax reasons, because most of their business is in the Far East and is growing faster, and because HQ functions employ a lot of admin staff who are much cheaper over there. It doesn't have anything to do with recent politics, or the EU.

The DEUTCHE BANK has only CONSIDERED leaving as you mention and no decisions have been made on this as shown here.

Right; because the UK hasn't actually left the EU yet. :rolleyes:

The fact that they're telling you they're considering leaving if the UK *does* leave, though, is incredibly telling.

It's really not. They considered leaving when the EERM broke down, when the UK didn't adopt the Euro, when the EBA was founded, and a few other times besides. The problem is that all the expertise, and all their colleagues, are in London, not Frankfurt. There have been any number of predictions of banks all moving to Frankfurt, but they can't. The staff don't want to go. Those who do go are desperate to return. Even the EBA in increasing it's presence in London. London is a global financial centre, Frankfurt isn't. Moving to Luxembourg would make more sense.

Such a major financial institution leaving also tarnishes London's position as a financial center power, which will have many unforeseeable ripple-effects.
Very slightly. It's a lot worse for Deutsche Bank than it is for London.

If the UK leaves, it will instantly lose access to the single market. It would have to re-negotiate access in order to gain that same sort of privileged trading relationship that Norway and Switzerland have... and the EU has absolutely nothing to gain from giving the UK that for free.

It gains a fair amount actually. Free trade is mutually beneficial, it's not a favour you grant to people you like.

Again; Norway is an economic vassal state of the EU.

No, that's not a fair way to describe the trading relationship.

You've expressed this much better than my long winded posts.
 
Just to be clear, you're saying that the legal burden of being a member of the European Economic Area is identical to the legal burden of being a full member of the EU?

No, but it isn't really that far off. Norway/Iceland have to abide by pretty much all European regulation except that which applies to fishing (the only real reason they're not in the EU) and agriculture.


I think what they want to do is reduce their participation in the EU to economic only.

The problem with that is that we will not allow this. You want to be part of the single market, you play by EU rules. Plain and simple.



It's a difficult situation. On the one hand, the EU has a lot that the UK wants, including valuable markets, economic ties, police cooperation, political influence, etc. and so on. On the other hand, the UK has a lot that the EU wants, including a healthier economy, and international links.

No. The UK does NOT really have anything to offer that is anywhere near equivalent to what the EU offers. A "healthier" economy? That's highly debatable, and not something that could just be 'offered to the EU' anyway. International links? You mean those financial links that are threatening to leave the UK? The Eurozone as a whole has far more international "links"; however you define them, whether its ports or banks; than the UK does and can do quite well without those added by the UK.

A break up would be bad for both. We can argue about who it would be worse for,

No we can't, it's already been quite well established by numerous studies and experts that the consequences for the UK would be far worse than those for the EU. The UK is not as relevant anymore as it likes to pretend; leaving the EU will not hurt the EU even remotely as much as it will hurt the UK itself.


but having one of the world's largest economies leave your club is not a good thing by any measure, and nor is declaring your most immediate geographic and economic neighbours impossible to work with.

The UK is willing to risk economic sabotage (mostly of itself, but to some extent of the EU) for the sole (real) purpose to strengthen its negotiating position. Why should the UK be allowed to risk such economic damage to strengthen its position, but in the unlikely event that the UK were to *actually* leave the EU shouldn't choose to *not* risk economic damage by keeping the UK out of the single market unless it agrees to our demands? The damage would already have been done, after all. Once the UK leaves, it has no ability to further damage the EU; so the EU would risk nothing by playing hardball. The UK will want access to the single market in order to maintain its economic position. Naturally, the EU will make demands of the UK in return.


They're leaving for tax reasons, because most of their business is in the Far East and is growing faster, and because HQ functions employ a lot of admin staff who are much cheaper over there. It doesn't have anything to do with recent politics, or the EU.

If you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you.


It's really not. They considered leaving when the EERM broke down, when the UK didn't adopt the Euro, when the EBA was founded, and a few other times besides. The problem is that all the expertise, and all their colleagues, are in London, not Frankfurt.

You don't really know much about Frankfurt's position in the financial industry, do you? :rolleyes:

There have been any number of predictions of banks all moving to Frankfurt, but they can't. The staff don't want to go. Those who do go are desperate to return. Even the EBA in increasing it's presence in London. London is a global financial centre, Frankfurt isn't.

Anybody who says Frankfurt is not a global financial centre doesn't know what the term means. Frankfurt is consistently listed in the top 10 of global financial centers.


It gains a fair amount actually. Free trade is mutually beneficial, it's not a favour you grant to people you like.

Normally that is true. The EU however, stands to lose a great deal by allowing the UK to simply leave without serious consequences. It sets a bad precedent, and whatever you think about the EU, it isn't quite that stupid. The EU would absolutely use any such market access negotiations as a way to demonstrate there are serious consequences to breaking with the EU. It simply can't afford not to.


No, that's not a fair way to describe the trading relationship.

Just because you don't like the term, doesn't mean it isn't accurate. Norway is far too small and weak to be an equal partner in EU-Norway relations. Simply put; it must put the policies in the parliament, or it gets the hose again. Sure, it's a much more amicable relationship than historic vassal relationships; but that is nonetheless what it essentially boils down to. An independent UK (even more so when we consider Scotland will inevitably leave) will be very much like Norway in that regard: simply not powerful enough to engage in negotiations with the EU as an equal. *Within* the EU it can serve as a balance against Germany and France and exert a great deal of influence. *Outside* the EU it will just be another Norway. There is simply no way that the UK with an economy of 2.5 trillion dollars, could ever be anything other than a junior/lesser partner to the EU with its economy worth 16.5 trillion dollars without the UK in it.
 
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