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Burqa ban in Denmark and it's backfiring spectacularly

Now that was funny :lol: The guy reading the newspaper and trying not to watch was priceless, too.

An apparent case of being admirably polite/tolerant, I thought, on his part. Maybe he's English. Many English people tend to not intrude by even overtly looking, in public. I'm not saying he'd have had to be English to be like that.
 
High heeled shoes are a form of male oppression as well.

I partially agree. :)

It's nuanced, as it often is.

Sometimes people say nuanced when they mean that we should have different rules from those we condemn.

Ask a woman though and she will tell you she loves her shoes, even if they are a constant pain.
 
Wrong. The French government studied this issue. What they found didn't match the approved narrative, so they suppressed the report. But it was leaked. Google translate did its best...

https://translate.google.com/transl...cation.gouv.fr/file/02/6/6026.pdf&prev=search

"...At the origin of this movement they often evoke the decisive influence of young men professing a religion at the more pious, less popular and more intellectual, often graduates and having made studies in France, the Maghreb or the Middle East, some from neighborhood and others who have arrived more recently: those whom teachers call with a certain aggressiveness "bearded" and that students name with a respect mixed with fear "Big brothers".
...

Status of women regressions

This is probably the most serious, the most outrageous and at the same time the most spectacular evolution of certain neighborhoods. Much has already been said and written about a subject which the media have largely treated for a year. A recent ministerial report alerted the decline in sports practice among young girls in these neighborhoods. 15 We will not develop so not this subject. But the words of our interlocutors and the simple act of walking around around a school or college is sometimes a real shock. Everywhere control morale and male supervision of women tend to strengthen and take Obsessive proportions. You must have seen these women completely covered in black, including hands and eyes, accompanied by a man, often young, sometimes a folding the hand so that they do not have to sit on an "impure" place, that no one seems to notice as they are part of the landscape, and no one seems to take offense at the condition, to seize in a short cut the tremendous regression of which we are the witnesses. Still these "Belphégor", as many call them, are not they the worst treated, because there are all those mothers who no longer come to the schools to seek their children, and who are forced to delegate this task to an elder or neighbor, because they are totally reclusive at home, sometimes for years. As more and more girls are veiled, teenage girls subject to rigorous supervision, moreover exercised more by boys than by the parents. A brother, even younger, can be both supervisor and protector of his sisters. Not having a brother can make a young girl particularly vulnerable. Beside frequentation and behavior, clothing is often the subject of prescriptions rigorous: as makeup, skirt and dress are forbidden, the pants are dark, wide, "jogging" style, the tunic must go down enough to hide any roundness. In such a city we are told that girls have to stay on weekends in their pajamas in order to can not even get out at the foot of the building. In such high school they put on their coat before going to the board so as not to arouse any concupiscence. Almost everywhere diversity is denounced, persecuted and mixed places like cinemas, social centers and sports equipment is prohibited. Several times we were told about the recrudescence of traditional marriages, "forced" or "arranged", from 14 or 15 years old. Many girls complain about the moral order imposed by the "big brothers", few dare to speak of the punishments that threaten them or that are inflicted upon them in case of transgression and can take the most brutal forms, those that sometimes emerge on the occasion of a various. Violence against girls is unfortunately not new, which is more is that they can be committed more and more openly in the name of religion."​

I think nearly all women in the west wear burkhas do it because they're really into it.
Pure assumption. You choose to believe that, not because you have evidence, but in order to approve of yourself.

I see you shifted this to be from adults to children. I'm not discussing children. While interesting, I think it's a separate topic.

In Denmark (and Sweden) parents aren't responsible for teaching children. The state is. So they'll come and get your kids and bring them to school by force if necessary. If parents try to stop them they will go to jail. The school can decide what the students wear. They have so far banned burkhas, because they feel they need to see the face of the students. It's pretty much a no-brainer. So in Sweden and Denmark, it's pretty much a non-issue. I've so far not seen any complaint about it from the Scandinavian Muslim community.
 
Sorry. I rambled a bit there without arriving at a point as such. I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning.

No. You're right on the money. You're thinking ahead.

Some years ago I cannot remember if it was an olympics sporting event, but there was a female competitor. Her dress exposed her arms and head but she wore long athletic pants. A reporter was making a report from some islamic nation, don't remember if it was her home state or not. Anyway, one of the male interviewees said, "If that was my sister I would kill her." He was referring to the fact that she was not covered enough. I will never forget it.

So it is about cultural oppression to a very, very large degree.
 
Sorry. I rambled a bit there without arriving at a point as such. I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning.

No. You're right on the money. You're thinking ahead.

Some years ago I cannot remember if it was an olympics sporting event, but there was a female competitor. Her dress exposed her arms and head but she wore long athletic pants. A reporter was making a report from some islamic nation, don't remember if it was her home state or not. Anyway, one of the male interviewees said, "If that was my sister I would kill her." He was referring to the fact that she was not covered enough. I will never forget it.

So it is about cultural oppression to a very, very large degree.

Yes.

However, I think we have to distinguish certain things. If there are bans (on showing skin) or oppressions or what have you in, say, the Islamic nation you refer to, that's one thing, and we may feel we can justifiably condemn. We are I suppose discussing whether we (in the 'west') should ban in the other direction, in our countries, where the situation and context are different.
 
Sorry. I rambled a bit there without arriving at a point as such. I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning.

No. You're right on the money. You're thinking ahead.

Some years ago I cannot remember if it was an olympics sporting event, but there was a female competitor. Her dress exposed her arms and head but she wore long athletic pants. A reporter was making a report from some islamic nation, don't remember if it was her home state or not. Anyway, one of the male interviewees said, "If that was my sister I would kill her." He was referring to the fact that she was not covered enough. I will never forget it.

So it is about cultural oppression to a very, very large degree.

Yes.

However, I think we have to distinguish certain things. If there are bans (on showing skin) or oppressions or what have you in, say, the Islamic nation you refer to, that's one thing, and we may feel we can justifiably condemn. We are I suppose discussing whether we (in the 'west') should ban in the other direction, in our countries, where the situation and context are different.

It seems to me that if we ban then we are making it easier for the women who are indeed oppressed. And let's face it, it is a form of religious oppression at its core. Maybe some women actually do like eating their spaghetti with their faces covered but they are still advertising an oppressive behavior. Should we make slavery legal for those who prefer being slaves?
 
I have no problem with someone choosing to wear a burka. It's just I don't believe it's generally voluntary.

Well, according to several studies (including the one I posted a link to and others cited in it) it mostly is, or so it is claimed, in places like the USA at least. Which surprised me, I admit. Well, to be fair, I've mostly read about studies and polls regarding the niqab and veiling generally, not necessarily the burqa. Plus there are several caveats regarding the studies. Plus, what does 'voluntary' mean? How voluntary is voluntary? Whatever, it seems many do choose it, even if we may think their reasons are sometimes awry.

It might be safe to say that more women than perhaps you or I or some/many people might have thought are exercising at least some agency, regarding veiling in general, in places like the USA at least.

As you say "or so it is claimed".
 
I see you shifted this to be from adults to children. I'm not discussing children. While interesting, I think it's a separate topic.

Er. I think our resident mr Late Caveat strikes again? :)

Sorry. I'm being hard on you. I know.

In fact, I may be plain wrong. I recall now that you did say you were in favour of a ban in schools.

Double sorry. Your point was entirely valid.
 
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