Can a new Cold War be avoided?

[arkirk]

I don't consider low level meddling (which I have no doubt Russians are doing) an invasion.
After all, US is meddling too, so nothing wrong with proportional meddling.
I put the the blame for the whole mess on US. Specifically US should not have supported Yanukovich removal. And fundamental reason is NATO expansion and explicit support any regime which is hostile to Russia.

So you think that the US "meddling" in Ukraine is equal to the Russian meddling?

The answer to your question is one word....YES! This thread asks the question can a new cold war be avoided. The answer is another question. CAN THE COLD WAR THAT IS NOW GOING ON BE STOPPED? NATO expansion IS U.S. meddling. The coups in the Ukraine was U.S. meddling. I am certain Putin and his operation is meddling. It reads like a page out of the now defunct Mad Magazine......SPY VERSUS SPY. That was a perfect picture of the futility of that mentality....they always knocked each other flat. Nobody ever won. This is so clear today in world politics, I suppose only a child can see it.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So you think that the US "meddling" in Ukraine is equal to the Russian meddling?

The answer to your question is one word....YES! This thread asks the question can a new cold war be avoided. The answer is another question. CAN THE COLD WAR THAT IS NOW GOING ON BE STOPPED? NATO expansion IS U.S. meddling. The coups in the Ukraine was U.S. meddling. I am certain Putin and his operation is meddling. It reads like a page out of the now defunct Mad Magazine......SPY VERSUS SPY. That was a perfect picture of the futility of that mentality....they always knocked each other flat. Nobody ever won. This is so clear today in world politics, I suppose only a child can see it.

Nuts! NATO didn't conquer any land in Eastern Europe. The EE countries voluntarily joined NATU and the EU. It was voluntary. They joined because it is more advantageous to them economically and because they don't want to be invaded and ruled by Russia again. Regardless, if NATO really had militarily invaded the EE countries, that still would not justify Russia invading Ukraine. The Ukrainians should have a right to govern themselves.

 

[Togo]

The problem with saying it's all down to superpower meddling, is that we give small countries a choice of what to do. The rewards of allying with one or the other power are substantial, and there's not much benefit in staying neutral. The problem with letting countries decide their own fate, is of course that they might make a choice, one way or the other, and one or more of the superpowers will get annoyed as a result.

No doubt some Ukrainians miss the certainties of the old regieme. And no doubt some Ukrainians are looking at countries like Poland, which used to a fair comparison, and see Poland becoming much much richer than they are, and thinking that could be them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't see the need for a derail. But for the record, I was against the US invasion of Iraq. Back on topic: you're issue is that you don't believe the world media that Russia is invading Eastern Ukraine? Question: if it could be demonstrated they are, would you continue supporting Russia?

I don't consider low level meddling (which I have no doubt Russians are doing) an invasion.
After all, US is meddling too, so nothing wrong with proportional meddling.
I put the the blame for the whole mess on US. Specifically US should not have supported Yanukovich removal. And fundamental reason is NATO expansion and explicit support any regime which is hostile to Russia.

Nothing we have done in the Ukraine is remotely like what Russia has been doing in the Ukraine. The closest we have come to what Russia is doing is Afghanistan and they're going even farther.

 

[dystopian]

NATO expansion IS U.S. meddling.

Hardly. To meddle is to interfere in something without being asked to. In the case of NATO expansion eastwards; the countries that joined did so of their own free volition. They *asked* to join. And they did so *precisely because* they neighbored a country with lots of guns and a history of conquest. A history of conquering *them*, to be precise. Those countries didn't join NATO because of US meddling, they joined NATO to prevent Russian meddling.

The coups in the Ukraine was U.S. meddling.

Despite the paranoid delusions uttered by some of the pro-russians (and the occasional paranoid delusion of people who think the US has the power to start and control popular revolts on the other side of the planet), no credible evidence has been presented of US meddling in that affair.

 

[ksen]

lol, russophiles may be even crazier than libertarians

 

[barbos]

US is spying on Merkel for fuck's sake. Of course US is/was meddling all over Georgia, Ukraine and the whole World.
US is no stranger to supporting authoritarian and undemocratic regimes (look at arab countries)
As long as these dictators under US control they are fine. Russia is not under US control so it must be squashed, that's basically US modus operandi.
It has nothing to do with democracy or what Ukrainians want, it is about what US administration machine wants and it wants to hurt Russia. Georgia learned that and Ukraine will learn that too.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

US is spying on Merkel for fuck's sake. Of course US is/was meddling all over Georgia, Ukraine and the whole World.
US is no stranger to supporting authoritarian and undemocratic regimes (look at arab countries)
As long as these dictators under US control they are fine. Russia is not under US control so it must be squashed, that's basically US modus operandi.
It has nothing to do with democracy or what Ukrainians want, it is about what US administration machine wants and it wants to hurt Russia. Georgia learned that and Ukraine will learn that too.

Spying != meddling.

 

[barbos]

I don't consider low level meddling (which I have no doubt Russians are doing) an invasion.
After all, US is meddling too, so nothing wrong with proportional meddling.
I put the the blame for the whole mess on US. Specifically US should not have supported Yanukovich removal. And fundamental reason is NATO expansion and explicit support any regime which is hostile to Russia.

Nothing we have done in the Ukraine is remotely like what Russia has been doing in the Ukraine.

Everything what is happening in Ukraine is US fault. All these dead people are on US, not Russia.

- - - Updated - - -

US is spying on Merkel for fuck's sake. Of course US is/was meddling all over Georgia, Ukraine and the whole World.
US is no stranger to supporting authoritarian and undemocratic regimes (look at arab countries)
As long as these dictators under US control they are fine. Russia is not under US control so it must be squashed, that's basically US modus operandi.
It has nothing to do with democracy or what Ukrainians want, it is about what US administration machine wants and it wants to hurt Russia. Georgia learned that and Ukraine will learn that too.

Spying != meddling.

Right, spying on allies and meddling with others.

 

[Ford]

Everything what is happening in Ukraine is US fault. All these dead people are on US, not Russia.

This is beyond mere Putin propaganda...it is sheer delusion.

Everything that is happening in Ukraine is the fault of the US, folks. Everything.

Not a single Ukrainian bears any responsibility for what is happening. Not the Ukrainian government. Not the separatists. No one of Ukrainian descent or Russian ethnicity is at fault. Nobody within the changing borders of Ukraine did anything wrong...it is all the US.

Oh, and Russia? Russia has apparently done absolutely nothing at all in Ukraine. Not a single piece of Russian military hardware ever crossed the border, no personnel ever entered any part of Ukraine, and not a single bullet lodged in the bodies of "all these dead people" had anything whatsoever to do with Russia.

Got it?

Good.


I'm sure that barbos will be along shortly to back up this delusional claim with evidence that all the tanks rolling into Ukraine (from a country to the east of Ukraine which is totally not Russia) are in fact American-made, filled with CIA agents and US troops, and a shocking report of a secret plot to us US fighter jets to shoot down an airliner over Greater Russia Ukraine...and blame it on the brave heroes fighting against the Nazis/US/Thugs (and those heroes are not at all in any way Russian. They probably don't even speak Russian)