We have warmongers on both sides of the fence. That is what I am trying to tell you.
No shit, that isn't news and it isn't relevant. The fact that there's warmongers on both sides doesn't mean "hey, it's all the same", and it doesn't mean we should just let Russia do whatever the hell it wants in the region.
Your idea of justice is what requires you to play a game and you are led by fear mongers and betrayers on your side as much as these enemies you hate.
First of all, my idea of justice isn't a game; nor am I led by fear mongers or betrayers on "my side". My idea of justice is to not let big bullies like Russia run rampant, stealing territory from other countries and generally acting like gigantic assholes. My idea of justice means that we, the international community, must draw a line in the sand and use whatever pressure we can to stop countries from doing this sort of thing; regardless of what country that is. Contrary to what you seem to be saying, peace is NOT something we need to have at all cost. What we need is a FAIR world. Peace is "easy", just run away whenever someone does something bad, and hope they never find you so they can do it to you too. Fairness on the other hand, requires us to risk the peace in order to make a stand.
Ukraine started out being part of the Soviet Union.
No, it didn't. The Russians were just the most recent to conquer the territory by force.
All of its citizens were once called Russians.
Only in the same sense that Dutch people were once called French because Napoleon annexed our country. That didn't make us French. The Ukrainians did NOT used to be called Russians; they've been called many things. Kievans, Cossacks, you name it. Russians is hardly something they've called themselves for any length of time.
The establishment of Ukraine as an independent nation was the forced separation of that area from Russia.
Independent nations existed in the area long before Russia did.
Some of the people within that area regarded themselves more as Russians than Ukrainians. That shouldn't be too hard for you to understand.
We will never know, since these people were not given the benefit of a peaceful and independent referendum, but rather one rushed through by a foreign occupation force.
Ukraine was the product of a gentleman's agreement. The U.S. violated the agreement and so did NATO.
Neither the US nor NATO has violated any agreement in regards to this matter. Contrary to the pro-russian's claim, there was never an agreement that NATO not expand eastwards. I've addressed this extensively in other threads; the idea that such an agreement was in place is a fiction that's demonstrably false.
You should understand that too.
I understand that whatever his motivations, they do not excuse his behavior.
You really don't believe in democracy when you refer to illegitimate referendums and only recommend military threats to solve problems.
Is this a joke? The only illegitimate referendum and military threats used were used by Russia in Crimea.
Putin may be an ass, but he is not Hitler.
Establishing a fact nobody has ever questioned.
You need to stop letting politicians stir up your fear and loathing of foreign politicians without questioning your own politicians,
I don't listen to my politicians, I question them every day, and I certainly haven't had my 'fear and loathing' stirred up.
What I *do* do, is pay actual attention to what's happened in the region, what Putin's done and what's going on his own country, and I notice the obvious historical parallels. What *you* need to do is to be less eager to rationalize Russia's conquests and behaviour away for the sole reason that you then don't have to deal with the scary world outside your own borders. And you need to stop characterizing people who see Putin as a serious problem as people who fall for the kind of absurd propaganda you may be accustomed to in the US. Newsflash: Yes, Putin is an authoritarian asshole with dangerous ambitions. Recognizing this fact does not make one a sheep who thinks we've always been at war with Eastasia.
