Can someone explain this curious observation that reminds me of our accelerating, expanding universe?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Make some instant coffee with boiling water. Give it a stir and then set it on the counter while you watch the top surface. Initially the top surface is rotating and covered with a bubbly foam. The foam begins to thin out and there will be a bit of foam in the center. If you look around the edge where the top surface meets the wall of the vessel, there is a noticeable radius from surface tension and containing floating foam. The curious thing then happens.

Bits of the surface foam not already attracted to the wall of the vessel begin to break up and move out away from the center. The closer they get to the wall of the vessel the faster they begin to move, they accelerate across the surface before eventually colliding with the wall of the vessel where they remain. Eventually all the foam has collected around the walls of the vessel and there is virtually none left floating on the surface.

Is this what is happening with our expanding, accelerating universe when we look at distant red shifted galaxies? Is it likely that something more massive than our known universe is acting as a great attractor? Is there some kind of surface tension operating on a cosmic scale?

 

[zorq]

Make some instant coffee with boiling water. Give it a stir and then set it on the counter while you watch the top surface. Initially the top surface is rotating and covered with a bubbly foam. The foam begins to thin out and there will be a bit of foam in the center. If you look around the edge where the top surface meets the wall of the vessel, there is a noticeable radius from surface tension and containing floating foam. The curious thing then happens.

Bits of the surface foam not already attracted to the wall of the vessel begin to break up and move out away from the center. The closer they get to the wall of the vessel the faster they begin to move, they accelerate across the surface before eventually colliding with the wall of the vessel where they remain. Eventually all the foam has collected around the walls of the vessel and there is virtually none left floating on the surface.

Is this what is happening with our expanding, accelerating universe when we look at distant red shifted galaxies? Is it likely that something more massive than our known universe is acting as a great attractor? Is there some kind of surface tension operating on a cosmic scale?

Well, it's possible. We can't see the edges of the universe so there is no way to tell. Theoretically there could be something out there further than 14 billion light years away causing some influential pull on galaxies in the universe.

Scientists will give a lot of pushback on this idea though. You see, your supposition sort of assumes that this thing you propose ("attraction rim"?) exists beyond the expansion of light and energy caused by the big bang, that it was not part of the big bang. Currently favored models of the big bang propose that the big bang was not just the moment all mass and energy expanded into space , but rather it's the moment that space itself began to expand from a singularity. It's easy to forget this because it is hard to imagine there being something even more "empty" than space. (so "empty" there isn't even space for SPACE) It is difficult to imagine this attraction rim that wasn't part of the big bang but somehow existing in space that only exists because of the big bang.

Now consider this for a moment. Here is a link to a map of galaxies in the sky plotted in colors according to their amount of red shift.
http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/2mrs/2MRS.smooth-1.allsky.png
The purple galaxies in this map aren't red shifted much which means that they aren't accelerating away from us much. The red galaxies on the map are accelerating away from us the most. If you notice, the distribution of galaxies accelerating away from us is fairly even. There is no part of the map where there are is an abundance of red shifted galaxies and no part where there is an absence of red shifted galaxies. So if your idea were correct we would be forced to assume that we are firmly in the middle of your swirling vortex of foam. The distribution of red shifts would look quite different if we were close to the attraction rim or if were were in the process of transitioning from the center to the rim. The reason I'm pointing this out is because based on random chance, it is unlikely that we would just happen to be riding a galaxy still smack dab in the middle of the universe 14 billion years later.

 

[skepticalbip]

Instant coffee cosmology?

I avidly avoid instant coffee. Drinking that stuff will make people imagine a coffee rim universe. If it ain't brewed coffee then it ain't coffee.

 

[barbos]

Sometimes a Cigar Is Just a Cigar

 

[fromderinside]

Even pipe dreams can go up in smoke .....

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Make some instant coffee with boiling water. Give it a stir and then set it on the counter while you watch the top surface. Initially the top surface is rotating and covered with a bubbly foam. The foam begins to thin out and there will be a bit of foam in the center. If you look around the edge where the top surface meets the wall of the vessel, there is a noticeable radius from surface tension and containing floating foam. The curious thing then happens.

Bits of the surface foam not already attracted to the wall of the vessel begin to break up and move out away from the center. The closer they get to the wall of the vessel the faster they begin to move, they accelerate across the surface before eventually colliding with the wall of the vessel where they remain. Eventually all the foam has collected around the walls of the vessel and there is virtually none left floating on the surface.

Is this what is happening with our expanding, accelerating universe when we look at distant red shifted galaxies? Is it likely that something more massive than our known universe is acting as a great attractor? Is there some kind of surface tension operating on a cosmic scale?

Well, it's possible. We can't see the edges of the universe so there is no way to tell. Theoretically there could be something out there further than 14 billion light years away causing some influential pull on galaxies in the universe.

Scientists will give a lot of pushback on this idea though. You see, your supposition sort of assumes that this thing you propose ("attraction rim"?) exists beyond the expansion of light and energy caused by the big bang, that it was not part of the big bang. Currently favored models of the big bang propose that the big bang was not just the moment all mass and energy expanded into space , but rather it's the moment that space itself began to expand from a singularity. It's easy to forget this because it is hard to imagine there being something even more "empty" than space. (so "empty" there isn't even space for SPACE) It is difficult to imagine this attraction rim that wasn't part of the big bang but somehow existing in space that only exists because of the big bang.

Now consider this for a moment. Here is a link to a map of galaxies in the sky plotted in colors according to their amount of red shift.
http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/2mrs/2MRS.smooth-1.allsky.png
The purple galaxies in this map aren't red shifted much which means that they aren't accelerating away from us much. The red galaxies on the map are accelerating away from us the most. If you notice, the distribution of galaxies accelerating away from us is fairly even. There is no part of the map where there are is an abundance of red shifted galaxies and no part where there is an absence of red shifted galaxies. So if your idea were correct we would be forced to assume that we are firmly in the middle of your swirling vortex of foam. The distribution of red shifts would look quite different if we were close to the attraction rim or if were were in the process of transitioning from the center to the rim. The reason I'm pointing this out is because based on random chance, it is unlikely that we would just happen to be riding a galaxy still smack dab in the middle of the universe 14 billion years later.

zorq, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the help.

 

[4321lynx]

Make some instant coffee with boiling water. Give it a stir and then set it on the counter while you watch the top surface. Initially the top surface is rotating and covered with a bubbly foam. The foam begins to thin out and there will be a bit of foam in the center. If you look around the edge where the top surface meets the wall of the vessel, there is a noticeable radius from surface tension and containing floating foam. The curious thing then happens.

Bits of the surface foam not already attracted to the wall of the vessel begin to break up and move out away from the center. The closer they get to the wall of the vessel the faster they begin to move, they accelerate across the surface before eventually colliding with the wall of the vessel where they remain. Eventually all the foam has collected around the walls of the vessel and there is virtually none left floating on the surface.

Is this what is happening with our expanding, accelerating universe when we look at distant red shifted galaxies? Is it likely that something more massive than our known universe is acting as a great attractor? Is there some kind of surface tension operating on a cosmic scale?

Well, it's possible. We can't see the edges of the universe so there is no way to tell. Theoretically there could be something out there further than 14 billion light years away causing some influential pull on galaxies in the universe.

Scientists will give a lot of pushback on this idea though. You see, your supposition sort of assumes that this thing you propose ("attraction rim"?) exists beyond the expansion of light and energy caused by the big bang, that it was not part of the big bang. Currently favored models of the big bang propose that the big bang was not just the moment all mass and energy expanded into space , but rather it's the moment that space itself began to expand from a singularity. It's easy to forget this because it is hard to imagine there being something even more "empty" than space. (so "empty" there isn't even space for SPACE) It is difficult to imagine this attraction rim that wasn't part of the big bang but somehow existing in space that only exists because of the big bang.

Now consider this for a moment. Here is a link to a map of galaxies in the sky plotted in colors according to their amount of red shift.
http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/2mrs/2MRS.smooth-1.allsky.png
The purple galaxies in this map aren't red shifted much which means that they aren't accelerating away from us much. The red galaxies on the map are accelerating away from us the most. If you notice, the distribution of galaxies accelerating away from us is fairly even. There is no part of the map where there are is an abundance of red shifted galaxies and no part where there is an absence of red shifted galaxies. So if your idea were correct we would be forced to assume that we are firmly in the middle of your swirling vortex of foam. The distribution of red shifts would look quite different if we were close to the attraction rim or if were were in the process of transitioning from the center to the rim. The reason I'm pointing this out is because based on random chance, it is unlikely that we would just happen to be riding a galaxy still smack dab in the middle of the universe 14 billion years later.

zorq, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the help.

Yes, but...

What about Dark Energy that is speeding up the Space expansion? Was it "always there" or did the Bang create it? And Dark Matter?
Why not an Outside Universe acting on our Measurable/Visible Universe ?

 

[Politesse]

You know, one of my college room-mates was writing a senior seminar project on a very similar premise. But I'm not versed in physics well enough to comment.

 

[Gun Nut]

when you stir your coffee the liquid starts to rotate within the vessel. after several minutes, the liquid still has a rotational velocity below the material that has risen to the surface. Centrifugal force of the larger volume of liquid below the surface material causes the majority of movement of the surface material. Additionally, coffee has a surface tension about the same as water. The fat from milk, for example, will change that surface tension where it is more concentrated. the differential of surface tension causes motion (google "soap powered boat"). Finally, the vessel itself breaks the surface tension of the liquid it contains where the liquid comes in contact directly with the vessel... anything that floats on top of any liquid with a decent amount of surface tension is going to migrate towards the walls of whatever contains it because of that differential.

Is that how galaxies spin and space expands? is there a multi-dimensional "surface tension" to the universe that gravity is an element of, or measure of? Maybe.