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Chicago at Night

 
 
 
Holy shit. This is completely foreign to me. I don't understand what would cause such an enormous amount of violence localised to one area?
 
I figured it was the sound of white cops pulling over and executing black drivers for no reason. But I like the drug war theory too.
 
At this point, many of the major drug gangs have been long broken up - the result is a huge number of smaller sets where the guys (and sometimes girls) are more interested in brotherhood, protection, and "respect" than in somehow becoming a drug kingpin. In fact, most of them take for granted that they won't live very long in any case, so they figure they may as well find some group to belong to while they're around.
 
LordKiran said:
Cheerful Charlie said:
Now, now. It's their culture. We have to respect their culture. Thankfully it's not ISIS doing the shooting.
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"Their culture" Huh? Do go on, and here have this length of rope while you're at it.
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Day of the Rope?

But seriously,

didn't medieval Europe have a very high murder rate because there was no recourse to courts? If someone was fucking with you, you just had to kill them.
 
I think it's fake. I hear multiple and prolonged automatic weapons fire. Gang related shootouts are much shorter than that. This looks more like a long range shootout in Syria.
 
thebeave said:
I figured it was the sound of white cops pulling over and executing black drivers for no reason. But I like the drug war theory too.
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If you hear a gunshot in Chicago or anywhere else in the US, the odds are many thousands of times greater that it is the sound of a black man shooting someone for no good reason, than that it is a cop shooting a black man for no good reason.

Note that while illegal drugs are often involved, such shootings rarely involve the law enforcement, and nothing about the war on drugs forces anyone involved with drugs to shoot anyone. Such shootings are the choice of murderous scumbags trying to profit via violence off of the situation that illegal drugs creates. While the war on drugs is unwise, placing moral blame on it for such shootings is like blaming child sex-slavery on statutory rape laws.
 
ronburgundy said:
thebeave said:
I figured it was the sound of white cops pulling over and executing black drivers for no reason. But I like the drug war theory too.
Click to expand...

If you hear a gunshot in Chicago or anywhere else in the US, the odds are many thousands of times greater that it is the sound of a black man shooting someone for no good reason, than that it is a cop shooting a black man for no good reason.

Note that while illegal drugs are often involved, such shootings rarely involve the law enforcement, and nothing about the war on drugs forces anyone involved with drugs to shoot anyone. Such shootings are the choice of murderous scumbags trying to profit via violence off of the situation that illegal drugs creates. While the war on drugs is unwise, placing moral blame on it for such shootings is like blaming child sex-slavery on statutory rape laws.
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So going back to medieval Europe with a massively murder rate, because of a lack of courts and prisons to warehouse trouble makers - meaning it made sense to just kill someone who wouldn't stop harassing you... Were Europeans more assholeish back then?

The state is pushing the moral, survival and profit calculations into a dark place with the drug war and the justice system vacuum.
 
repoman said:
The state is pushing the moral, survival and profit calculations into a dark place with the drug war and the justice system vacuum.
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Justice system vacuum will persist as long as the city government sees police as the enemy.
 
this is the kind of shit that happened in medieval Europe and is now in Brazil...

This is in a double spoiler box for fairly violent content of a thief getting head stomped by two people and then thrown off a bridge 5 meters into a river or canal while dead or unconscious. A large crowd is going by like nothing is abnormal.




I don't think looking for blame of the people doing the violence between adults is fully productive. Adult males have violence ready to happen very easily in a violent lawless society. It is up to law and order to get it under control - and ALSO to have an enjoyable society to have low tensions - not just a prison camp culture like Duterte is making.

This is different from blaming adults for sexual assault of minors for example. In a lawless society molesters get killed real quick, unless they are in a warlord position..
 
repoman said:
ronburgundy said:
If you hear a gunshot in Chicago or anywhere else in the US, the odds are many thousands of times greater that it is the sound of a black man shooting someone for no good reason, than that it is a cop shooting a black man for no good reason.

Note that while illegal drugs are often involved, such shootings rarely involve the law enforcement, and nothing about the war on drugs forces anyone involved with drugs to shoot anyone. Such shootings are the choice of murderous scumbags trying to profit via violence off of the situation that illegal drugs creates. While the war on drugs is unwise, placing moral blame on it for such shootings is like blaming child sex-slavery on statutory rape laws.
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So going back to medieval Europe with a massively murder rate, because of a lack of courts and prisons to warehouse trouble makers - meaning it made sense to just kill someone who wouldn't stop harassing you... Were Europeans more assholeish back then?
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What are you talking about and how does it have anything to do with the fact that illegal drugs have never caused anyone to shoot someone? Being an immoral scumbag is the cause of all "drug-related" shootings by criminals. The fact that the drugs are illegal is merely something that attracts immoral murderous scumbags to the drug trade rather than other areas where they could kill for profit.


The state is pushing the moral, survival and profit calculations into a dark place with the drug war and the justice system vacuum.
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The state is unintentionally creating easy opportunities for immoral scum to use violence for personal profit. But, by creating train systems, the state creates opportunities for people to push others in front of trains. That doesn't put the blame for train killings on the state.
The argument against drug laws lies in that it is immoral to punish drug use or the exchange of drugs. The moral blame for the drug related shootings still rests with the shooters who are in no way compelled to shoot others just because drugs are illegal.
 
So, the children who gets killed in the crossfire from a drug war shootout, is there any culpability for their death from the state and its laws?
 
repoman said:
this is the kind of shit that happened in medieval Europe and is now in Brazil...

This is in a double spoiler box for fairly violent content of a thief getting head stomped by two people and then thrown off a bridge 5 meters into a river or canal while dead or unconscious. A large crowd is going by like nothing is abnormal.




I don't think looking for blame of the people doing the violence between adults is fully productive. Adult males have violence ready to happen very easily in a violent lawless society. It is up to law and order to get it under control - and ALSO to have an enjoyable society to have low tensions - not just a prison camp culture like Duterte is making.

This is different from blaming adults for sexual assault of minors for example. In a lawless society molesters get killed real quick, unless they are in a warlord position..
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Let me get this straight. You don't think we should blame those who engage in violence for their criminal, completely voluntary and needless violence they commit (which entail all "drug-related" violence)?

We aren't and never should be a lawless society, so I don't see how such a hypothetical has any relevance. In a society with laws (or just with physical infrastructure we create), the laws and infrastructure will create unintended opportunities for those who CHOOSE to harm others. Its absurd to place the blame for that harm on the factors that created the opportunities. If the laws or infrastructure have no justification to begin with, then that is its own problem, but we shouldn't inflate the argument against them by transferring the blame from those who take immoral advantage of the created opportunities and who would just find those violent opportunities elsewhere if such laws didn't exist.
 
repoman said:
So, the children who gets killed in the crossfire from a drug war shootout, is there any culpability for their death from the state and its laws?
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There is far more culpability for the gun makers/dealers and the NRA. And their culpability is a tiny fraction of the culpability of the shooters, followed by all their friends and family members who help, enable, or refuse to try and stop them (which includes rating them out to law enforcement for the many crimes they committed prior to shooting that kid).

Bad laws that get used by some to harm others are neither neccessary nor sufficient for those people to find ways to harm others.
 
Why should anyone care who is to blame?

The question we need an answer to is "How do we fix the problem?". Culpability is completely irrelevant.

The quickest and cheapest way to reduce violent crime in the USA would be to decriminalize drugs. So that's the smart thing to do.
 
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