China to build “Higgs factory” twice the size of Cern’s Large Hadron Collider

[GenesisNemesis]

The project was first mentioned in three years ago, but most physicists around the world assumed that the Chinese would begin with a modest project to hone their skills.

Instead, they are planning to build a 100km long loop, more than three times longer than the LHC.

The aim is to produce a “factory” for making Higgs bosons in hopes that if hundreds of bosons are produced, it will be possible to find deviations from the particle physics’ “standard model”, which would then give theoretical physicists data for their hypotheses.

Link.

Dayum!

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The good thing is that it's not politically incorrect for them to build it using cheap Chinese labour.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The project was first mentioned in three years ago, but most physicists around the world assumed that the Chinese would begin with a modest project to hone their skills.

Instead, they are planning to build a 100km long loop, more than three times longer than the LHC.

The aim is to produce a “factory” for making Higgs bosons in hopes that if hundreds of bosons are produced, it will be possible to find deviations from the particle physics’ “standard model”, which would then give theoretical physicists data for their hypotheses.

Link.

Dayum!

I suspect this has more to do with propping up their economy than science.

 

[Underseer]

Link.

Dayum!

I suspect this has more to do with propping up their economy than science.

Propping up the economy is the purpose of big science. It just shows that they are thinking about where their economy will be three decades down the line, while America continues to leave the big science to everyone else. But then, our government's decisions are based entirely on next quarter's earnings reports, so that should surprise no one.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I suspect this has more to do with propping up their economy than science.

Propping up the economy is the purpose of big science. It just shows that they are thinking about where their economy will be three decades down the line, while America continues to leave the big science to everyone else. But then, our government's decisions are based entirely on next quarter's earnings reports, so that should surprise no one.

No. The purpose of science is to learn things. That very well might end up helping the economy.

I'm saying that what China is doing is probably more about providing something to spend money on building than about learning anything. They have too much construction capacity (note their ghost cities) and are in a panic to avoid an economic slowdown that would crash their stock market.

 

[fromderinside]

Propping up the economy is the purpose of big science. It just shows that they are thinking about where their economy will be three decades down the line, while America continues to leave the big science to everyone else. But then, our government's decisions are based entirely on next quarter's earnings reports, so that should surprise no one.

No. The purpose of science is to learn things. That very well might end up helping the economy.

I'm saying that what China is doing is probably more about providing something to spend money on building than about learning anything. They have too much construction capacity (note their ghost cities) and are in a panic to avoid an economic slowdown that would crash their stock market.

There wouldn't be big science if there weren't strong evidence of economic payoff. Not even tightly controlled capitalistic systems, 15th century Spain aside, would do that. So your argument, Loren Pechtel, falls and underseer's argument stands.

 

[untermensche]

The day this thing opens China becomes a world center for physics research.

It can be as much about prestige as anything.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The good thing is that it's not politically incorrect for them to build it using cheap Chinese labour.

Where do you get the idea that China only uses cheap labour? Legally there is a minimum wage and mandatory end of service gratuity for employees. After 10 years service it is very expensive to sack anyone. During 10 years in China wages went up as the companies also increased their HSE and efficiency at least in the Oil Gas, construction and various commercial areas. Certain fields still lack enforcement of workers protection laws (eg New China Labour Law 2008)

 

[whichphilosophy]

The day this thing opens China becomes a world center for physics research.

It can be as much about prestige as anything.

Perhaps this project means it already is.

 

[lpetrich]

China plans super collider : Nature News & Comment

[table="class: grid"]
[tr]
[td]Patron[/td]
[td]Circumf[/td]
[td]e+e-[/td]
[td]pp[/td]
[td]parton[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]CERN[/td]
[td]27 km[/td]
[td]209 GeV[/td]
[td]14 TeV[/td]
[td]1.75 TeV[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]China[/td]
[td]52 km[/td]
[td]240 GeV[/td]
[td]70 TeV[/td]
[td]8.75 TeV[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]China, int'l[/td]
[td]80 km[/td]
[td]240 GeV[/td]
[td]100 TeV[/td]
[td]12.5 TeV[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]US-Europe[/td]
[td]100 km[/td]
[td][/td]
[td]100 TeV[/td]
[td]12.5 TeV[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
The third one is for an international collaboration hosted in China.

The "parton" entry is for the estimated average kinetic energy of the protons' quarks and gluons (partons). I've estimated it by dividing the total collision energy by 2*4 = 8. The 2 is for the 2 protons, and the 4 is for the average number of partons in each proton. It's a good estimate of the maximum amount of mass / energy available for producing some new particle that is produced in pairs, like a known particle's supersymmetry partner.

Also mentions the proposed International Linear Collider, with length 31 km and collision energy around 1 TeV.

The Higgs particle will be produced by "Higgsstrahlung" from e+e- collisions:
e⁺ + e^- -> Z -> Z +H
A virtual Z particle radiating a Higgs particle and becoming a real Z particle.

Z-particle mass: 91 GeV
Higgs-particle mass: 125 GeV
Sum: 216 GeV

The previous occupant of the LHC's tunnels was an electron-positron collider named LEP. It got up to 209 GeV, barely under threshold for Z Higgsstrahlung. But the Chinese proposed accelerators will be over threshold.

 

[Underseer]

Propping up the economy is the purpose of big science. It just shows that they are thinking about where their economy will be three decades down the line, while America continues to leave the big science to everyone else. But then, our government's decisions are based entirely on next quarter's earnings reports, so that should surprise no one.

No. The purpose of science is to learn things. That very well might end up helping the economy.

I'm saying that what China is doing is probably more about providing something to spend money on building than about learning anything. They have too much construction capacity (note their ghost cities) and are in a panic to avoid an economic slowdown that would crash their stock market.

Yes, and the reason to learn things is to improve your economy three decades down the line.

Or at least, that is the primary motive for spending tax dollars on such things.

Asia and Europe are increasing their spending on big science, while America is decreasing its spending on big science. Once they overtake us, we are about three decades out from losing our advantage over others, but that's OK because wealthy people in America will be slightly wealthier, at least until those other economies move past ours.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. The purpose of science is to learn things. That very well might end up helping the economy.

I'm saying that what China is doing is probably more about providing something to spend money on building than about learning anything. They have too much construction capacity (note their ghost cities) and are in a panic to avoid an economic slowdown that would crash their stock market.

Yes, and the reason to learn things is to improve your economy three decades down the line.

Or at least, that is the primary motive for spending tax dollars on such things.

Asia and Europe are increasing their spending on big science, while America is decreasing its spending on big science. Once they overtake us, we are about three decades out from losing our advantage over others, but that's OK because wealthy people in America will be slightly wealthier, at least until those other economies move past ours.

You're missing the point. I'm saying this is far more pork & prestige rather than science.

 

[Valjean]

Don't trust 'em. They're planning to flood the market with cheap, Chinese Bosons.

 

[Derec]

The good thing is that it's not politically incorrect for them to build it using cheap Chinese labour.

Also typical Chinese: mass producing stuff invented elsewhere.

 

[fromderinside]

So you're up to giving Marconi credit for the telephone then.

 

[Bomb#20]

So you're up to giving Marconi credit for the telephone then.

Marconi was a little on the pre-born side for that. Are you making a counter-pun that went whooshing over my head, or did you mean Meucci?

 

[Axulus]

A giant linear collider would be of more benefit to science at this stage in time than another circular accelerator. I wonder why they decided to go for a circular one?