Chloramine

[Jimmy Higgins]

So saw a short portion of Bill Maher and Mark Ruffalo was going apeshit over Chloramine. They are using it now to treat water instead of chlorine. We are all going to die.

My BS detector, however, was going off. A lot of vague claims, nothing that sounded the least bit scientific. But Ruffalo is an actor... and therefore knows everything.

So I figured I'd check it out. The Wikipedia page says the EPA is going to ban it ("Chloramine has been implicated as a mutagen and as a toxic agent for aquatic life, hence the US EPA proposes to prohibit its use in drinking water.")

I go to the EPA site and it says meh.

I can't help but notice the discrepancy. So I do a quick google search. Ah good... a website warning about the dangers of chromamine. Apparently mono is safe, but the other two are dangerous, but mono switches to double and triple easily.

EPA does say it isn't a good primary method of cleaning water. So what the lumps?

 

[skepticalbip]

So saw a short portion of Bill Maher and Mark Ruffalo was going apeshit over Chloramine. They are using it now to treat water instead of chlorine. We are all going to die.

My BS detector, however, was going off. A lot of vague claims, nothing that sounded the least bit scientific. But Ruffalo is an actor... and therefore knows everything.

So I figured I'd check it out. The Wikipedia page says the EPA is going to ban it ("Chloramine has been implicated as a mutagen and as a toxic agent for aquatic life, hence the US EPA proposes to prohibit its use in drinking water.")

I go to the EPA site and it says meh.

I can't help but notice the discrepancy. So I do a quick google search. Ah good... a website warning about the dangers of chromamine. Apparently mono is safe, but the other two are dangerous, but mono switches to double and triple easily.

EPA does say it isn't a good primary method of cleaning water. So what the lumps?

Indeed Chloramine is a toxic agent for aquatic life but then so is Chlorine. That is why it is used to purify drinking water because it kills organic life such all those microbes we don't want in our drinking water that could give us some nasty illnesses. Are Bill Maher and Mark Ruffalo suggesting we should drink untreated water? It sounds like more new age woo to me.

Fact is that Chlorine will quickly kill any organic life including people or coatimundi. It was one of the nastier gasses used on the battlefields of WWI. But then poison is in the dosage and trace doses in drinking water is no problem.


From the EPA:

https://www3.epa.gov/region9/water/chloramine.html
Chlorine has been safely used for more than 100 years for disinfection of drinking water to protect public health from diseases which are caused by bacteria, viruses and other disease causing organisms. Chloramines, the monochloramine form in particular, have also been used as a disinfectant since the 1930's. Chloramines are produced by combining chlorine and ammonia. While obviously toxic at high levels, neither pose health concerns to humans at the levels used for drinking water disinfection.

Chloramines are weaker disinfectants than chlorine, but are more stable, thus extending disinfectant benefits throughout a water utility's distribution system. They are not used as the primary disinfectant for your water. Chloramines are used for maintaining a disinfectant residual in the distribution system so that disinfected drinking water is kept safe. Chloramine can also provide the following benefits:

Since chloramines are not as reactive as chlorine with organic material in water, they produce substantially lower concentrations of disinfection byproducts in the distribution system. Some disinfection byproducts, such as the trihalomethanes (THMs) and haloacetic acids (HAAs), may have adverse health effects at high levels. These disinfection byproducts are closely regulated by EPA. EPA recently reduced the allowable Maximum Contaminant Levels for total THMs to 80 ug/L and now limit HAAs to 60 ug/L. The use of chlorine and chloramines is also regulated by the EPA. We have Maximum Residual Disinfectant Levels of 4.0 mg/L for both these disinfectants. However, our concern is not from their toxicity, but to assure adequate control of the disinfection byproducts.
Because the chloramine residual is more stable and longer lasting than free chlorine, it provides better protection against bacterial regrowth in systems with large storage tanks and dead-end water mains.
Chloramine, like chlorine, is effective in controlling biofilm, which is a slime coating in the pipe caused by bacteria. Controlling biofilms also tends to reduce coliform bacteria concentrations and biofilm-induced corrosion of pipes.
Because chloramine does not tend to react with organic compounds, many systems will experience less incidence of taste and odor complaints when using chloramine.

 

[Kharakov]

https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/19968

lol... do a search for chloramine... AKA https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/20776

not the same thing... but, puns exist in chemistry too. Not too punny though....

 

[untermensche]

Maher also has warned us of the dangers of vaccination.

He should stick to jokes.

 

[fromderinside]

Indeed Chloramine is a toxic agent for aquatic life but then so is Chlorine. That is why it is used to purify drinking water because it kills organic life such all those microbes we don't want in our drinking water that could give us some nasty illnesses. Are Bill Maher and Mark Ruffalo suggesting we should drink untreated water? It sounds like more new age woo to me.

Fact is that Chlorine will quickly kill any organic life including people or coatimundi. It was one of the nastier gasses used on the battlefields of WWI. But then poison is in the dosage and trace doses in drinking water is no problem.


From the EPA:

https://www3.epa.gov/region9/water/chloramine.html
Chlorine has been safely used for more than 100 years for disinfection of drinking water to protect public health from diseases which are caused by bacteria, viruses and other disease causing organisms. Chloramines, the monochloramine form in particular, have also been used as a disinfectant since the 1930's. Chloramines are produced by combining chlorine and ammonia. While obviously toxic at high levels, neither pose health concerns to humans at the levels used for drinking water disinfection.

Chloramines are weaker disinfectants than chlorine, but are more stable, thus extending disinfectant benefits throughout a water utility's distribution system. They are not used as the primary disinfectant for your water. Chloramines are used for maintaining a disinfectant residual in the distribution system so that disinfected drinking water is kept safe. Chloramine can also provide the following benefits:

Since chloramines are not as reactive as chlorine with organic material in water, they produce substantially lower concentrations of disinfection byproducts in the distribution system. Some disinfection byproducts, such as the trihalomethanes (THMs) and haloacetic acids (HAAs), may have adverse health effects at high levels. These disinfection byproducts are closely regulated by EPA. EPA recently reduced the allowable Maximum Contaminant Levels for total THMs to 80 ug/L and now limit HAAs to 60 ug/L. The use of chlorine and chloramines is also regulated by the EPA. We have Maximum Residual Disinfectant Levels of 4.0 mg/L for both these disinfectants. However, our concern is not from their toxicity, but to assure adequate control of the disinfection byproducts.
Because the chloramine residual is more stable and longer lasting than free chlorine, it provides better protection against bacterial regrowth in systems with large storage tanks and dead-end water mains.
Chloramine, like chlorine, is effective in controlling biofilm, which is a slime coating in the pipe caused by bacteria. Controlling biofilms also tends to reduce coliform bacteria concentrations and biofilm-induced corrosion of pipes.
Because chloramine does not tend to react with organic compounds, many systems will experience less incidence of taste and odor complaints when using chloramine.

Lets go just a bit further.

The effect of chlorine and chloramine use in secondary disinfection on corrosionin infrastructure materials is a complex process that is often system dependent.Chlorines have a higher oxidizing potential than chloramines, but residualchloramines are more persistent and may provide better disinfection from sourceto tap. Chlorines are known to form harmful disinfection by-products that, insome cases, may exceed maximum contaminant levels. Chloramines minimizeDBP formation, but, due to their lower oxidation potential, may form highersolubility scales that can increase dissolution of metals. Elastomeric materials* tend to be more strongly degraded by chloramines than chlorines. Corrosionissues, such as increased leaching of metals or degradation of polymers, may arisewhen transitioning between disinfection techniques due to their varying effects onwater chemistry. Control of water pH and alkalinity and the addition of certaininhibitors can be effective in controlling corrosion in distribution systems.

from: http://file:///C:/Users/User/Downlo...degradation_in_reclamation_infrastructure.pdf

* things like silicone rubber products which plumbers use to connect pipes leading to the faucet for instance.

 

[Malintent]

Maher also has warned us of the dangers of vaccination.

He should stick to jokes.

Where? source please. He did say that obviously vaccinations are not a problem, or we all would be dead by now (his words). His comment was that we shouldn't be so quick to say that everyone opposed to certain vaccinations for certain people should not automatically be called 'kooks and liars', nor should we just cram everything any pharmaceutical company produces down tour throats without critical thought.

 

[fromderinside]

Maher also has warned us of the dangers of vaccination.

He should stick to jokes.

Where? source please. He did say that obviously vaccinations are not a problem, or we all would be dead by now (his words). His comment was that we shouldn't be so quick to say that everyone opposed to certain vaccinations for certain people should not automatically be called 'kooks and liars', nor should we just cram everything any pharmaceutical company produces down tour throats without critical thought.

Well there are plenty of kooks and lairs among them. At least most of CA and OR educations systems are now requiring vaccinations or the kid gets home school. Fix up those measles outbreaks toot sweet.

 

[skepticalbip]

Someone should tell Bill Maher and Mark Ruffalo that they would find it quite difficult to find water that had no arsenic in it. The EPA set a maximum limit on arsenic in tap water at 10 ppb in 2006. Before that, the limit was 50ppb. However, bottled spring water is not regulated by the EPA so can have much higher concentrations of arsenic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is what I thought. My main question that remains is that Chromamine is noted by EPA to not be effective as a primary disinfectant. So how does this jibe with being used as a primary disinfectant?

- - - Updated - - -

Maher also has warned us of the dangers of vaccination.

He should stick to jokes.

He has?

 

[skepticalbip]

This is what I thought. My main question that remains is that Chromamine is noted by EPA to not be effective as a primary disinfectant. So how does this jibe with being used as a primary disinfectant?

According to the EPA Chromamine is more stable than pure chlorine so extends disinfectant benefits throughout a water utility's distribution system while chlorine may not:

https://www3.epa.gov/region9/water/chloramine.html

Chloramines are weaker disinfectants than chlorine, but are more stable, thus extending disinfectant benefits throughout a water utility's distribution system. They are not used as the primary disinfectant for your water. Chloramines are used for maintaining a disinfectant residual in the distribution system so that disinfected drinking water is kept safe.

Where did you read that it was used as a primary disinfectant?

 

[untermensche]

Maher also has warned us of the dangers of vaccination.

He should stick to jokes.

Where? source please. He did say that obviously vaccinations are not a problem, or we all would be dead by now (his words). His comment was that we shouldn't be so quick to say that everyone opposed to certain vaccinations for certain people should not automatically be called 'kooks and liars', nor should we just cram everything any pharmaceutical company produces down tour throats without critical thought.

Show me the ONE vaccine that is just a trick of the pharmaceutical industry.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/adult.html

 

[untermensche]

This is what I thought. My main question that remains is that Chromamine is noted by EPA to not be effective as a primary disinfectant. So how does this jibe with being used as a primary disinfectant?

- - - Updated - - -

Maher also has warned us of the dangers of vaccination.

He should stick to jokes.

He has?

If only that were true.

His ignorance on this is only surpassed by his ignorance on the conflict between the ME and the Western nations who have been exploiting and abusing and attacking it.

 

[Malintent]

This is what I thought. My main question that remains is that Chromamine is noted by EPA to not be effective as a primary disinfectant. So how does this jibe with being used as a primary disinfectant?

- - - Updated - - -

He has?

If only that were true.

His ignorance on this is only surpassed by his ignorance on the conflict between the ME and the Western nations who have been exploiting and abusing and attacking it.

If what were true?
I found the source of his comment... it does not indicate at all that he is an anti-vaccer. He specifically said, "of course vaccinations are not generally dangerous, or we all would be dead by now'. His words on the topic were more about not blindly dismissing the edge cases where there are good medical reasons to avoid certain vaccinations for certain people with those conditions. He said calling them 'kooks and liars' was akin to blindly accepting anything the pharmaceutical companies wish to 'shove down our throats'. In other words, Maher cautions that one should always maintain a critical eye and keep it rational.
What is the argument against that position?

 

[untermensche]

If only that were true.

His ignorance on this is only surpassed by his ignorance on the conflict between the ME and the Western nations who have been exploiting and abusing and attacking it.

If what were true?
I found the source of his comment... it does not indicate at all that he is an anti-vaccer. He specifically said, "of course vaccinations are not generally dangerous, or we all would be dead by now'. His words on the topic were more about not blindly dismissing the edge cases where there are good medical reasons to avoid certain vaccinations for certain people with those conditions. He said calling them 'kooks and liars' was akin to blindly accepting anything the pharmaceutical companies wish to 'shove down our throats'. In other words, Maher cautions that one should always maintain a critical eye and keep it rational.
What is the argument against that position?

Please specifically tell me what vaccines the pharmaceutical corporations are trying to shove down people's throats.

Maher is funny, he is able to get people talking, but he is very ignorant about many things.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If what were true?
I found the source of his comment... it does not indicate at all that he is an anti-vaccer. He specifically said, "of course vaccinations are not generally dangerous, or we all would be dead by now'. His words on the topic were more about not blindly dismissing the edge cases where there are good medical reasons to avoid certain vaccinations for certain people with those conditions. He said calling them 'kooks and liars' was akin to blindly accepting anything the pharmaceutical companies wish to 'shove down our throats'. In other words, Maher cautions that one should always maintain a critical eye and keep it rational.
What is the argument against that position?

Please specifically tell me what vaccines the pharmaceutical corporations are trying to shove down people's throats.

Maher is funny, he is able to get people talking, but he is very ignorant about many things.

He is, but his statements on vaccines do not indicate he is an anti-vac'er. In general, his statements are about caution in medicine because lots of Pharma companies just want bucks. Even Doctors are saying we are generally over testing patients.

Maher seems to be a bit over the edge when it comes to genetic farming and the like.

 

[untermensche]

Please specifically tell me what vaccines the pharmaceutical corporations are trying to shove down people's throats.

Maher is funny, he is able to get people talking, but he is very ignorant about many things.

He is, but his statements on vaccines do not indicate he is an anti-vac'er. In general, his statements are about caution in medicine because lots of Pharma companies just want bucks. Even Doctors are saying we are generally over testing patients.

Maher seems to be a bit over the edge when it comes to genetic farming and the like.

His statements indicate he is ignorant.

“Why can’t we have a kind of grand bargain on this?” Maher chimed in. “It just seems like we’re calling each other kooks and liars. It seems like common sense that vaccines, even thimerosal, probably don’t hurt most people — if they did, we’d all be dead, because they’re in a lot of vaccines that we all took — but some do. Obviously some minority gets hurt by this stuff. I don’t understand why this is controversial? Why we have this emotional debate about something that– there is science there. It astounds me that liberals, who are always suspicious of corporations… and defending minorities, somehow when it comes to this minority that’s hurt, it’s like, ‘You know what? Shut the fuck up and let me take every vaccine that Merck wants to shove down my throat.’”

What vaccine is Merck shoving down people's throat?

What is the scientific evidence any children are harmed by vaccines?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

He is, but his statements on vaccines do not indicate he is an anti-vac'er. In general, his statements are about caution in medicine because lots of Pharma companies just want bucks. Even Doctors are saying we are generally over testing patients.

Maher seems to be a bit over the edge when it comes to genetic farming and the like.

His statements indicate he is ignorant.

“Why can’t we have a kind of grand bargain on this?” Maher chimed in. “It just seems like we’re calling each other kooks and liars. It seems like common sense that vaccines, even thimerosal, probably don’t hurt most people — if they did, we’d all be dead, because they’re in a lot of vaccines that we all took — but some do. Obviously some minority gets hurt by this stuff. I don’t understand why this is controversial? Why we have this emotional debate about something that– there is science there. It astounds me that liberals, who are always suspicious of corporations… and defending minorities, somehow when it comes to this minority that’s hurt, it’s like, ‘You know what? Shut the fuck up and let me take every vaccine that Merck wants to shove down my throat.’”

What vaccine is Merck shoving down people's throat?

What is the scientific evidence any children are harmed by vaccines?

Doesn't sound quite good there. I was supposing he was referring to children who couldn't take vaccines because of existing illnesses like Leukemia. His argument isn't sound, but he isn't quite an anti-vac'er. He probably could be put straight on the issue.

 

[untermensche]

Doesn't sound quite good there. I was supposing he was referring to children who couldn't take vaccines because of existing illnesses like Leukemia. His argument isn't sound, but he isn't quite an anti-vac'er. He probably could be put straight on the issue.

He's a wishy washy anti-vac'er.

He's ringing alarm bells at phantoms.

Do we have one quote in the buildup to the invasion of Iraq that Mayer was against it?

I don't know if the headline in this video is correct. It is not mine. I don't know if he is defending the invasion. I do think he is not condemning it for it was.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezpaJepLwaI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Bill Maher is a Libertarian, I'm hardly a Maher apologist. Shit is so messed up in the US that Maher looks like a socialist.

 

[blastula]

Maher is a medical science denialist. He has a tinfoil attitude about Big Medicine.

Bill Maher doubles down on his antivaccine misinformation…again – Respectful Insolence
Same as it ever was: Antivaccine crank Bill Maher loves him some HIV/AIDS quackery – Respectful Insolence