Chronicles in Pacific Socialism - Hawaii Bans Fossil Fuels to Make Electricity.

[dismal]

Intermittency doesn't have to result in unreliability because you can use energy storage with batteries and things like pumped-storage hydroelectric.

These things fall under the category of "expenses". And pumped storages are not as rare as unicorns, but they are not exactly common either. They generally require a very specific set of terrain features to be economically reasonable.

Cost actually makes renewables a pretty good bet in Hawaii.

OK, then let the people build renewables. Oops, they seem to want to burn oil and coal.

Fossil fuels are more expensive than elsewhere because they have to be shipped in while it is a very good location for solar (4.5-5.5 kWh/m²/day) and also has good potential for wind and sea based energy (waves, tidal). Given the volcanic nature of the islands, geothermal is also a good possibility, although it is not mentioned in the article

Geothermal stations are not quite as rare as unicorns (back when I used to know such things there was essentially one in the US that produced a material amount of energy) but they generally require a very specific set of geological conditions that are not commonly found.

Note that the plan is a pretty long term one - by 2045 which is 30 years into the future. That's definitely doable.

Yes, if you are willing to tolerate the cost of it. But this article is about destroying the opportunity to burn clean natural gas instead of oil and coal during that 30 year transition -- which based on the recorded history of similar mandates will likely not happen.

How much wave/tidal energy generation actually exists in the world?

A few 10s of GW I would say based on list of plants and individual capacities (200MW-1GW for most of them).

Tidal power stations are not quite as rare as unicorns, but they are not exactly common either. They generally require a very specific set of terrain features to be economically reasonable. It's not like "hey we're near an ocean so we have tides lets make tidal power".

Note that rooftop solar capacity increased by a factor of 7.6 between 2010 and 2013, nearly doubling every year. That means that by 2015 it has probably increased in a similar fashion, so that we are looking at close to 10% for 2015.

It just takes lots of money. Remember, that was my point.

 

[Derec]

These things fall under the category of "expenses". And pumped storages are not as rare as unicorns, but they are not exactly common either. They generally require a very specific set of terrain features to be economically reasonable.

You generally need an elevation difference and a water source. Both much more common in Hawaii than natural gas, it being volcanic and not having any ancient sedimentary rocks.
Interest grows for pumped hydro storage options in Hawaii

OK, then let the people build renewables. Oops, they seem to want to burn oil and coal.

Do they?
Gridlocked by the power grid: Why Hawaii’s solar energy industry is at a crossroads
Apparently many Hawaiians want to put solar panels on their roofs but the utilities are the ones putting on the brakes.

Geothermal stations are not quite as rare as unicorns (back when I used to know such things there was essentially one in the US that produced a material amount of energy) but they generally require a very specific set of geological conditions that are not commonly found.

I would say they are more commonly found on an volcanic archipelago than in the middle of a tectonic plate. According to Wikipedia, Hawaii ranks third among US states for geothermal.
25 MW More Geothermal For Hawaii’s Big Island

Yes, if you are willing to tolerate the cost of it. But this article is about destroying the opportunity to burn clean natural gas instead of oil and coal during that 30 year transition -- which based on the recorded history of similar mandates will likely not happen.

Yes, gas would be better than oil, the preferred way to generate electricity in Hawaii right now. But Hawaii has little in terms of natural gas infrastructure. So that would have to be built up, at great expense, for a transitional fuel that would have to be imported just like petroleum is now. So I definitely see their point.

Tidal power stations are not quite as rare as unicorns, but they are not exactly common either. They generally require a very specific set of terrain features to be economically reasonable. It's not like "hey we're near an ocean so we have tides lets make tidal power".

True, but so what? I'll leave it to engineers to identify any suitable locations and ignore the rest.

It just takes lots of money. Remember, that was my point.

But energy is already very expensive in Hawaii. They will probably even save money on this in the long run, especially since low oil/gas prices cannot last.

 

[Derec]

Pumped storage works if you have a suitable location--but note you lose a lot of power.

Apparently they have suitable locations.
Hydro as energy storage has huge potential in Hawaii, expert says
And how much energy do you lose liquefying and transporting natural gas halfway across the ocean?

There simply is no suitable battery at present.

What about flow redox batteries?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Apparently they have suitable locations.
Hydro as energy storage has huge potential in Hawaii, expert says
And how much energy do you lose liquefying and transporting natural gas halfway across the ocean?

There simply is no suitable battery at present.

What about flow redox batteries?

The cycle efficiency on flow batteries isn't very good but they hold promise. It's too early to say they are an answer.

 

[Derec]

The cycle efficiency on flow batteries isn't very good but they hold promise. It's too early to say they are an answer.

I think the best way to develop technologies is to deploy them in the real world. And Hawaii is, due to high fuel cost, a good opportunity for that.
Same goes for electric cars - short distances one can travel and high gas prices make Hawaii perfect for if you want to buy an EV.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The cycle efficiency on flow batteries isn't very good but they hold promise. It's too early to say they are an answer.

I think the best way to develop technologies is to deploy them in the real world. And Hawaii is, due to high fuel cost, a good opportunity for that.
Same goes for electric cars - short distances one can travel and high gas prices make Hawaii perfect for if you want to buy an EV.

But the high electric cost makes it expensive to charge your electric car.

I do agree they should be put to use in the real world but on a small scale at first.