• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

COLOUR

You aren't even trying now untermensche. It isn't a special property called color. Just like part of the spectrum is called ultraviolet and far infrared, which are outside the range of humans and most other living living things here on earth it's called visible spectrum and why not? There's radio wave, FM wave, long range radar wave, tracking radar wave. X ray, and microwave, which we we all accept as are part of the overall energy spectrum. It's not special at all. You say so because it fits into your man controls her mind notion.

Now if it were like 'subjective' which is pure fiction cover for "I think therefore ..." as a cover for sounding scientific, but is actually a placeholder for obvious indefinable speculative assertions, that would be magic.
 
You aren't even trying now untermensche. It isn't a special property called color. Just like part of the spectrum is called ultraviolet and far infrared, which are outside the range of humans and most other living living things here on earth it's called visible spectrum and why not? There's radio wave, FM wave, long range radar wave, tracking radar wave. X ray, and microwave, which we we all accept as are part of the overall energy spectrum. It's not special at all. You say so because it fits into your man controls her mind notion.

Now if it were like 'subjective' which is pure fiction cover for "I think therefore ..." as a cover for sounding scientific, but is actually a placeholder for obvious indefinable speculative assertions, that would be magic.

Your anthropocentric nonsense is not convincing.

You think a small part of the EM spectrum has secret information about color in it merely because humans create color from the stimulation. It is a silly blindness, nothing more. Like thinking the earth is flat because that is what it appears like.

Science must deal with "reality". Not hide from it.

And reality is: I think therefore I exist. I experience therefore both I and experience exist.

You have no magic information or any argument that makes this not true.
 
A thought experiment for the open minded.

Imagine there is no color information in EM energy. Imagine there is only variation that can be detected.

Is it possible for an evolving brain to create an experience of color from this colorless information?
 
Eavesdropping on this debate, I usually take fromderside's side, but I'm afraid some of his posts also resemble extremist caricatures.
!. The subjective mind is scientifically (materially) meaningless in itself, ergo so is experience. It is only used because we do not yet understand the relations between brain and environment. Something that is a place holder is not a thing....

Over the past 50 years we've pretty much put the concept of consciousness to rest as an illusion. We now pretty much dismiss humans acting on the world....

Who is "we"? I do not think it includes ALL the people who call themselves scientists.
Perhaps I should obviate a round of rejoinders by quoting from a book by Paul Davies, available on-line.
Consciousness is the number-one problem of science, of existence even. Most scientists just steer clear of it, thinking it too much of a quagmire.
...
Among life’s many baffling properties, the phenomenon of consciousness leaps out as especially striking. Its origin is arguably the hardest problem facing science today and the only one that remains almost impenetrable even after two and a half millennia of deliberation. If Schrödinger’s question ‘What is life?’ has proved hard enough to answer, ‘What is mind?’ is an even tougher nut to crack.
...
A new twist in the relationship between quantum fuzziness and human consciousness was introduced about thirty years ago by the Oxford mathematician Roger Penrose. ... [H]e claims that some microtubules threading through the interior of neurons might process information quantum mechanically, thus greatly boosting the processing power of the neural system and, somehow, generating consciousness on the way.
...
Not everyone agrees, however, that cracking the information architecture problem will ‘explain’ consciousness, even if one buys into the thesis that conscious experiences are all about information patterns in the brain. David Chalmers, an Australian philosopher at New York University, divides the topic into ‘the easy problem’ and ‘the hard problem’. The easy part – very far from easy in practice – is to map the neural correlates of this or that experience, that is, determine which bit of the brain ‘lights up’ when the subject sees this or hears that. It’s a doable programme. But knowing all the correlates still wouldn’t tell us ‘what it is like’ to have this or that experience. I’m referring to the inner subjective aspect – the redness of red, for example –what philosophers call ‘qualia’. Some people think the hard problem of qualia can never be settled, partly for the same reason that I can’t be sure that you exist just because you behave more or less like I do. If so, the question ‘What is mind?’ will lie forever beyond our ken.
I think Penrose, Davies and Chalmers qualify as "scientists."
 
Anyone honestly trying to understand the fact that human consciousnesses is that which experiences things is a scientist.
 
A brain may be stimulated by something, react to something, process something, construct something.

But only consciousness experiences anything.
 
(stuffed in here to make the task of responding easier for myself)

Who is "we"? I do not think it includes ALL the people who call themselves scientists.

Swammerdami if one follows the discussion on consciousness one finds whether it is science or philosophical mumbo jumbo hinges on whether conscious acts on or is respondent. Whatever it is is pretty much certain from recent MRI studies determined to be respondent.

... In this sense my statement of 'probably settled' that whatever consciousness is respondent. Consciousness is still treated as caused by scientists, thus consciousness is a place holder since we don't yet know it's characteristics in detail even by scientists such as Crick, Penrose et. cetera.

Perhaps I should obviate a round of rejoinders by quoting from a book by Paul Davies, available on-line.
Consciousness is the number-one problem of science, of existence even. Most scientists just steer clear of it, thinking it too much of a quagmire.
...
Among life’s many baffling properties, the phenomenon of consciousness leaps out as especially striking. Its origin is arguably the hardest problem facing science today and the only one that remains almost impenetrable even after two and a half millennia of deliberation. If Schrödinger’s question ‘What is life?’ has proved hard enough to answer, ‘What is mind?’ is an even tougher nut to crack.
...
A new twist in the relationship between quantum fuzziness and human consciousness was introduced about thirty years ago by the Oxford mathematician Roger Penrose. ... [H]e claims that some microtubules threading through the interior of neurons might process information quantum mechanically, thus greatly boosting the processing power of the neural system and, somehow, generating consciousness on the way.
...
Not everyone agrees, however, that cracking the information architecture problem will ‘explain’ consciousness, even if one buys into the thesis that conscious experiences are all about information patterns in the brain. David Chalmers, an Australian philosopher at New York University, divides the topic into ‘the easy problem’ and ‘the hard problem’. The easy part – very far from easy in practice – is to map the neural correlates of this or that experience, that is, determine which bit of the brain ‘lights up’ when the subject sees this or hears that. It’s a doable programme. But knowing all the correlates still wouldn’t tell us ‘what it is like’ to have this or that experience. I’m referring to the inner subjective aspect – the redness of red, for example –what philosophers call ‘qualia’. Some people think the hard problem of qualia can never be settled, partly for the same reason that I can’t be sure that you exist just because you behave more or less like I do. If so, the question ‘What is mind?’ will lie forever beyond our ken.

I think Penrose, Davies and Chalmers qualify as "scientists."

Indeed. However notice that they constrain themselves to finding material explanations rather than attributing causal capabilities. It is pretty awesome that humans and other beings are aware of themselves and what is about them even in a historical sense.

Thanks for your post.
 
Because according to you, color is not something that exists in the world. So why should filtering out some of the wavelengths of light that hit his eyes cause any particular experience in his brain?

The brain is getting a different neural signal from the eye. Therefore it is making a different experience.

The person has all the mechanisms in the brain to create red. But they never got the proper signal from the eye to cause the brain to create red.

They are experiencing red for the first time. That makes grown men cry.
No, you are still confused. The person has the necessary cone cells in his retina to see red (or "create red" as you would confuse it). He has seen red before, and his brain is perfectly capable of experiencing red. The problem with that type of color blindness is that the two types of cones that are sensitive to red and green wavelengths are closer than normal to each other: hence they have a harder time distinguishing these two colors than the average person. But not impossible.

A person crying is not evidence that he is experiencing something new. I can show you videos of people speaking in tongues or doing other emotional shit because they think they are being touched by God, but it's not proof that God exists.


The glasses change the neural signal the brain is getting from the eye.

And when the brain gets a different signal it creates a different experience. Color is not the signal. It is not the stimulus on the eye. It is the experience.
The glasses change the color of light that passes through them, and consequently hit the person's eyes. And that's where the signal comes from: different color causes the cone cells in the retina to fire differently, which results in different signal being sent to the brain, which results in a different experience. The signal is not the color, but color information is encoded in the signal. How the brain experiences this is up to the brain, but that's not the color either. It's just an experience of the color.

Our experience of shape is an experience. But it is an experience of something in the world.

Just like color. But the experience of color is not the color itself, just like experience of shape is not the shape.

Absolutely not.

The shape can be tested.
Color can be tested too. Any digital camera can do it. With specialized detectors you can even get more color information out of the light than a human eye. Some animals (and very rarely some humans) have four kinds of cones in their eyes, and they can see more colors than you or I. But with technological aides I can objectively and reliably detect and measure exactly the same color information without having to resort to subjective experience.

If you bump into the object but don't want to you are not experiencing the shape correctly. The object is there.

If you fall over the cliff you did not see the shape of the cliff correctly.

The animals that don't make a good representation of shape will not survive as well as the animals that do. The experience of shape is self correcting. It gets better and better because the better you approximate shape in your experience the better you survive.

There is no way for an animal to approximate the proper color. There is no such thing as the proper color. Color is arbitrary.

In terms of mammals and apes like humans it is good for survival if the skins of fruit are vivid colors like red or yellow. Therefore the animals who by chance makes yellow out of the light reflected off bananas will survive better than the animals that makes grey out of that light.
So you agree with me: there is objective information in light reflected from bananas that our eyes can detect. This information is called "color".

Just like color. Traffic lights would not be very effective if people could interpret "red" and "green" in ways not corresponding to the actual color of the light.

That just shows that the same species makes the same experience of color when exposed to the same colorless energy.

The fact that humans share the same experience of color is due to their genetic proximity.

It is not evidence in any way that color is out there. What is out there is energy that has no color.
You can play these word games with shape of weight as well. We have "the same experience of shape" when exposed to the same shapeless objects. Or that our brains "create weight" when exposed to the same weightless masses. But that's just semantic gobbledygook. You might as well say that the things have shapes and weights. And color.

Color is not a property of the objects that reflect color, it's a property of light.

Anthropocentric nonsense.

"Light" is simply the small part of the spectrum that excites the human eye. "Light" is an anthropocentric concept based on human experience with energy.

You think that the arbitrary manner in which humans experience energy is some universal. That is anthropocentric nonsense.

There is no way for a brain to know which color it is supposed to present to consciousness based on the frequency of energy. The colors created are the colors that helped with survival the best. They have nothing to do with the world and everything to do with evolving organisms trying to survive.
There is nothing in my definition of color that is human-centric: color is a distribution of wavelengths of light. Only thing that you could argue about there is that "light" seems to imply a particular band of electromagnetic spectrum, but you might as well extend it to infrared and ultraviolet, or the entire spectrum if you will. But we are talking about bands that living organisms are able to sense through their eye-like organs, which typically rules out radio and X-rays.

The colors that we can see are only a subset. A tetrachromat can distinguish colors that look the same to us regular folks, just like we can distinguish mixtures of red and green that look the same to a color blind person. But an inability to see a color doesn't mean the color doesn't exist.
 
A thought experiment for the open minded.

Imagine there is no color information in EM energy. Imagine there is only variation that can be detected.

Is it possible for an evolving brain to create an experience of color from this colorless information?

What does that even mean? That all EM energy has just one, fixed wavelength? Or that EM radiation can have different wavelengths, but never at the same time?
 
No, you are still confused. The person has the necessary cone cells in his retina to see red (or "create red" as you would confuse it). He has seen red before, and his brain is perfectly capable of experiencing red. The problem with that type of color blindness is that the two types of cones that are sensitive to red and green wavelengths are closer than normal to each other: hence they have a harder time distinguishing these two colors than the average person. But not impossible.

The cells in the retina do not "see". They are not conscious. They reflexively send a neural signal centrally if a chemical reaction takes place. Color is then created centrally based on the signal sent and experienced by a consciousness.

Color.jpg

The energy waves hitting the eye that cause a chemical reaction are first transformed into a neural signal that is sent centrally to the brain, mainly to the occipital lobe. The neural information is split and processed in over 30 areas of the brain to create the visual experience.

The visual experience is a creation of the brain, like all experiences. Like consciousness, that which is aware of color once created.

The glasses change the neural signal to the brain by causing different chemical reactions in the eye. Thus they change the experience of color.

And people experience color for the first time and grown men cry.

This is all I have time for now.
 
I'm having difficulty here with what you mean by the brain. Does 'the brain' include neural clusters outside the spinal column that act as executives for many kinds of local behavior in the being? Why is that which converts the chemical reaction not part of the nervous system, the brain? How does the being handle information passed through the blood stream to and from neural elements? Specifically where and how does consciousness originate? How do you know beyond personal report- yano, you talking to yourself - that you are conscious, in control?

Inquiring minds ...
 
I'm having difficulty here with what you mean by the brain. Does 'the brain' include neural clusters outside the spinal column that act as executives for many kinds of local behavior in the being? Why is that which converts the chemical reaction not part of the nervous system, the brain? How does the being handle information passed through the blood stream to and from neural elements? Specifically where and how does consciousness originate? How do you know beyond personal report- yano, you talking to yourself - that you are conscious, in control?

Inquiring minds ...

How does consciousness arise?

I have said for years and years we have no clue how consciousness arises from the activity of cells.

The brain is shorthand for "where the visual experience is created". That may include places in the body besides what anatomists call the brain.

If you have some information the visual experience is created in the blood or in what we call the peripheral nervous system share it.
 
No, you are still confused. The person has the necessary cone cells in his retina to see red (or "create red" as you would confuse it). He has seen red before, and his brain is perfectly capable of experiencing red. The problem with that type of color blindness is that the two types of cones that are sensitive to red and green wavelengths are closer than normal to each other: hence they have a harder time distinguishing these two colors than the average person. But not impossible.

The cells in the retina do not "see". They are not conscious.
I formulated that sentence poorly. I didn't mean "they" as a reference to the cone cells in the eye, but the color blind people. Or more accurately, the 10-20% subset of color blind people who are not entirely color blind, and can benefit from enchroma glasses.
 
The glasses change the color of light that passes through them, and consequently hit the person's eyes.

You merely assume the light has color because your brain creates the experience of color when exposed to the colorless energy.

That is anthropocentric nonsense.

There is no color information within the energy and you can't show it to me.

Showing me the experience of color within consciousness is not showing me color information within colorless invisible energy waves.

Show me where the color information is within the energy? Where is it?

Saying the information is there merely because color exists as an experience is just like saying there must be color information about blue within a hand that turns on a blue light.

Energy waves are what cause a brain to create color.

They have no color information at all. They are merely a hand throwing a switch. All the color information exists within the instrument that creates consciousness.
 
No, you are still confused. The person has the necessary cone cells in his retina to see red (or "create red" as you would confuse it). He has seen red before, and his brain is perfectly capable of experiencing red. The problem with that type of color blindness is that the two types of cones that are sensitive to red and green wavelengths are closer than normal to each other: hence they have a harder time distinguishing these two colors than the average person. But not impossible.

The cells in the retina do not "see". They are not conscious. They reflexively send a neural signal centrally if a chemical reaction takes place. Color is then created centrally based on the signal sent and experienced by a consciousness.

View attachment 32778

The energy waves hitting the eye that cause a chemical reaction are first transformed into a neural signal that is sent centrally to the brain, mainly to the occipital lobe. The neural information is split and processed in over 30 areas of the brain to create the visual experience.

The visual experience is a creation of the brain, like all experiences. Like consciousness, that which is aware of color once created.

The glasses change the neural signal to the brain by causing different chemical reactions in the eye. Thus they change the experience of color.
And what causes the different chemical reactions in the eye? Different wavelengths of light, i.e. a different color.

If the "wave of energy" (a new-age term if there ever was one) i.e. light that hits the eye were "colorless", then there would be no difference in the chemical reactions caused by it, no difference in the neural signal going to the brain, and whatever difference there may be in the experience would be entirely subjective. The fact that the reaction is not entirely subjective but depends on the wavelengths of light that hits the eye, is evidence that color is not just in a person's head, it's a description of the properties of that light.

Human visual experience covers more than just color. It also includes approximate shapes, distances and movement of objects.

And people experience color for the first time and grown men cry.
Crying is still not evidence of anything.
 
And what causes the different chemical reactions in the eye? Different wavelengths of light, i.e. a different color.

It is not caused by a wavelength.

It is caused by a certain energy level. The wavelength is associated with that energy level. So is the frequency. Wavelength and frequency are constant. Amplitude can change.

The energy itself causes a chemical reaction in the eye.

The experience is color.

But the energy level is just a colorless stimulus hitting a switch in the eye.

You can't show me any color information within waves of energy.

And it is anthropocentric nonsense to conclude the energy must have color because the experience does.
 
Crying is still not evidence of anything.

It is not just crying. It is laughing and crying and dancing and an inability to speak. It is a huge emotional response.

And what do you claim it is all about?

A little better color?

Get real!
 
The glasses change the color of light that passes through them, and consequently hit the person's eyes.

You merely assume the light has color because your brain creates the experience of color when exposed to the colorless energy.

That is anthropocentric nonsense.

There is no color information within the energy and you can't show it to me.
Yes, I can. First google hit:

enchroma.png

This is probably marketing material and not an actual view through the enchroma glasses. But according to you, there is no color information in the image, so how do you explain that your brain "creates" a different experience for the third picture compared to the first one? If there is no color information in the photons that hit your eyes, where does the information come from? Why is it that we can be pretty sure that we'd describe the differences in the pictures in the same way, i.e. that the flowers are redder, instead of each of us having totally different and maybe conflicting experiences?

How can you say that the light hitting your eyes has no color information, when you can literally see that it does? (Unless you are reading this on a monochrome display of course.)

Showing me the experience of color within consciousness is not showing me color information within colorless invisible energy waves.

Show me where the color information is within the energy? Where is it?

Saying the information is there merely because color exists as an experience is just like saying there must be color information about blue within a hand that turns on a blue light.

Energy waves are what cause a brain to create color.

They have no color information at all. They are merely a hand throwing a switch. All the color information exists within the instrument that creates consciousness.
But for some arbitrary reason you are not applying the same logic to anything else except color. Observe the letter "o" in the word "color". You would say that it's a circle (or roughly that shape). You wouldn't say that it's a shapeless object that creates shape in your brain. And you could rationalize it with exactly the same logic that you use to rationalize that color isn't real. But why the double standard?

We can of course consider that everything we know about the world is just experiences in our brains. But those experiences are based on the real world. An object is circular in the real world, not just in your head, even if the individual atoms that comprise the object know nothing of "shapes".
 
And what causes the different chemical reactions in the eye? Different wavelengths of light, i.e. a different color.

It is not caused by a wavelength.

It is caused by a certain energy level. The wavelength is associated with that energy level. So is the frequency. Wavelength and frequency are constant. Amplitude can change.
Color is relative amplitudes of different wavelengths in light. So changing the amplitudes (i.e. brightness) of certain frequencies (which is what the glasses do, by supressing certain frequencies) changes the color of the light passing through them.

And it is anthropocentric nonsense to conclude the energy must have color because the experience does.

There is nothing anthropocentric about that. The effect can be measured objectively with various instruments. If anything, you are being anthropocentric by thinking that color is something that's concocted by human brains.
 
Back
Top Bottom