COLOUR

[fromderinside]

Show me the cell that energy can do more than stimulate.

Oh, look there is energy in the form of a action potential coming from the neuron that was stimulated by the cell receiving external stimulation energy. I wonder how that happened? It was a warm summers day ...

 

[untermensche]

Show me the cell that energy can do more than stimulate.

Oh, look there is energy in the form of a action potential coming from the neuron that was stimulated by the cell receiving external stimulation energy. I wonder how that happened? It was a warm summers day ...

Oh look there is electricity moving to the blue light after the hand throws the switch.

That hand must have information about blue. The electricity must have information about blue.

 

[fromderinside]

Oh look there is electricity moving to the blue light after the hand throws the switch.

That hand must have information about blue. The electricity must have information about blue.

In your tiny little world where subjectivity is a reality. At least you've convinced yourself such is so.

Not in my large everybody plays deterministic objective world though. There there is material stuff that interacts with other material stuff in a playground where there are rules by which one can come to the conclusion things are determined.

 

[untermensche]

Oh look there is electricity moving to the blue light after the hand throws the switch.

That hand must have information about blue. The electricity must have information about blue.

In your tiny little world where subjectivity is a reality. At least you've convinced yourself such is so.

Not in my large everybody plays deterministic objective world though. There there is material stuff that interacts with other material stuff in a playground where there are rules by which one can come to the conclusion things are determined.

I did not have to work hard to convince myself the hand that turns on the blue light has no information about blue.

I have asked and asked but you have no answer.

Show me the information about color in energy.

A brain can turn a hand hitting a switch into many things. A sight or a sound or a smell.

Even a color.

 

[Swammerdami]

... They have no connection to cells and the fact that a stimulus can only activate a cell or damage a cell or not activate a cell.

A stimulus can do no more and posting two meaningless articles about human activity is a smokescreen of ignorance.

Show me the cell that energy can do more than stimulate.

Then I show you  Magnetotactic bacteria as an obvious example: The energy input (from magnetic field) does more than just activate or not: it orients.

 

[untermensche]

... They have no connection to cells and the fact that a stimulus can only activate a cell or damage a cell or not activate a cell.

A stimulus can do no more and posting two meaningless articles about human activity is a smokescreen of ignorance.

Show me the cell that energy can do more than stimulate.

Then I show you  Magnetotactic bacteria as an obvious example: The energy input (from magnetic field) does more than just activate or not: it orients.

Does the magnetic field give the magnet information it can pass along when the field is gone?

Or does the energy just move the magnet without giving the magnet anything?

Causing a change and giving information are two different things.

Just because you can cause a change does not mean you are passing information.

A hand hitting the switch to turn on the blue light does not pass information about blue to the light.

 

[Swammerdami]

... They have no connection to cells and the fact that a stimulus can only activate a cell or damage a cell or not activate a cell.

A stimulus can do no more and posting two meaningless articles about human activity is a smokescreen of ignorance.

Show me the cell that energy can do more than stimulate.

Then I show you  Magnetotactic bacteria as an obvious example: The energy input (from magnetic field) does more than just activate or not: it orients.

... information ...

Causing a change and giving information are two different things.

Just because you can cause a change does not mean you are passing information.

A hand hitting the switch to turn on the blue light does not pass information about blue to the light.

You use this word a lot. Which dictionary's definition are you using?

Suppose I've just sent you a PM containing, as information, Delilah's phone number. Does this information not exist until you've read the PM?

 

[untermensche]

... information ...

Causing a change and giving information are two different things.

Just because you can cause a change does not mean you are passing information.

A hand hitting the switch to turn on the blue light does not pass information about blue to the light.

You use this word a lot. Which dictionary's definition are you using?

Suppose I've just sent you a PM containing, as information, Delilah's phone number. Does this information not exist until you've read the PM?

A thing can have information but not information about color.

If you send me a phone number you have not sent me instruction about how to call Delilah.

Does a hand that pushes a switch that turns on a blue light have information about blue?

 

[Swammerdami]

Does a hand that pushes a switch that turns on a blue light have information about blue?

There's not enough information here for absolute certainty; but usually, yes, the hand is connected to a nervous system which does usually know that it has turned on a light, and that that light shines blue.

 

[untermensche]

Does a hand that pushes a switch that turns on a blue light have information about blue?

There's not enough information here for absolute certainty; but usually, yes, the hand is connected to a nervous system which does usually know that it has turned on a light, and that that light shines blue.

Nervous systems don't know things. Minds know things.

A mind knows which light will turn on but the mind does not create blue with that information. If the light was replaced and turned green instead the mind would still think the switch turned on a blue light.

 

[fromderinside]

In your tiny little world where subjectivity is a reality. At least you've convinced yourself such is so.

Not in my large everybody plays deterministic objective world though. There there is material stuff that interacts with other material stuff in a playground where there are rules by which one can come to the conclusion things are determined.

I did not have to work hard to convince myself the hand that turns on the blue light has no information about blue.

I have asked and asked but you have no answer.

Show me the information about color in energy.

A brain can turn a hand hitting a switch into many things. A sight or a sound or a smell.

Even a color.

re blue, you have not indicated to me you understand what are the characteristics of blue which are objective attributes of particular visible light.

I've provided the answer many times. You fail to understand because you are in denial that blue is a material thing.

Brains are neural tissue that process information which can result in a being turning hands switches. Brains do not produce sights, sound or smells nor color either. They only process information that can result in a being reporting it's neural analogs of the information processed via language through vocal discourse or the creating of replicates of what has been sensed by the being.

 

[untermensche]

In your tiny little world where subjectivity is a reality. At least you've convinced yourself such is so.

Not in my large everybody plays deterministic objective world though. There there is material stuff that interacts with other material stuff in a playground where there are rules by which one can come to the conclusion things are determined.

I did not have to work hard to convince myself the hand that turns on the blue light has no information about blue.

I have asked and asked but you have no answer.

Show me the information about color in energy.

A brain can turn a hand hitting a switch into many things. A sight or a sound or a smell.

Even a color.

re blue, you have not indicated to me you understand what are the characteristics of blue which are objective attributes of particular visible light.

Blah, blah, blah.

It is EM energy that has certain characteristics all EM energy shares.

If it has color information all EM energy somehow anticipated eyes and evolved color information.

EM energy exists long before retinas exist.

It did not come with information for retinas.

It can excite certain cells by causing a chemical reaction. It is energy. It is a hand. It can throw a switch.

Because it is a specific chemical reaction the cell is excited in a specific way and can send specific information. But it is just information about chemical reactions that take place inside the cell. It is not information from outside the cell. No information was passed. A specific button was pushed by energy. Energy can do things. Energy is not sending a rock information when energy hurls the rock. A hand is not passing information when it turns on a switch.

You have never shown me any color information in EM energy.

It did not come with information anticipating the evolution of eyes it could pass that information to.

The evolving brain can potentially connect to any cells that by chance can be stimulated or transformed by something in the world.

And the brain can turn that stimulation into what it can.

We can see that evolving brains have turned external stimulation into many things. The visual experience, sound, taste, smell, touch.

It did not do this by getting information from the external stimulation.

It did it by creating an experience whole from the stimulation.

The experience evolves and the best experiences that give the best chance to survive remain and can change randomly to a better experience for survival.

Experience is a brain generated survival mechanism. A very good one.

 

[fromderinside]

EM energy interacts at many levels with other material fields. EM energy clearly doesn't anticipate anything it is photons varying in nature across frequencies as evidenced by the various interactions it produces when interacting with those material fields all according to physical law. We find that one segment of EM energy when interacting with other fields produces visible light. And at that you go all hand wavy.

There's that.

Then there's you inventing ways to avoid understanding the nature of energy fields.

there's that.

Then there's you promoting your view of the world as it comes to you out of your ass.

There's that.

What should we believe?

Definitely not the last.

and there's that.

 

[untermensche]

EM energy interacts at many levels with other material fields. EM energy clearly doesn't anticipate anything it is photons varying in nature across frequencies as evidenced by the various interactions it produces when interacting with those material fields all according to physical law. We find that one segment of EM energy when interacting with other fields produces visible light. And at that you go all hand wavy.

Blah blah blah.

Energy is causing a chemical reaction in the cell.

It is like applying heat to a reaction to make it move forward.

You are not imparting information to molecules when you apply energy to them and cause a chemical reaction to take place.

Take your first chemistry class then come back.

 

[fromderinside]

 Electromagnetic radiation

Electromagnetic waves of different frequency are called by different names since they have different sources and effects on matter. In order of increasing frequency and decreasing wavelength these are: radio waves, microwaves, infrared radiation, visible light, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays and gamma rays.^[3]

In quantum mechanics, an alternate way of viewing EMR is that it consists of photons, uncharged elementary particles with zero rest mass which are the quanta of the electromagnetic field, responsible for all electromagnetic interactions.^[6]Quantum electrodynamics is the theory of how EMR interacts with matter on an atomic level.^[7] Quantum effects provide additional sources of EMR, such as the transition of electrons to lower energy levels in an atom and black-body radiation.^[8] The energy of an individual photon is quantized and is greater for photons of higher frequency. This relationship is given by Planck's equationE = hf, where E is the energy per photon, f is the frequency of the photon, and h is Planck's constant. A single gamma ray photon, for example, might carry ~100,000 times the energy of a single photon of visible light.

The effects of EMR upon chemical compounds and biological organisms depend both upon the radiation's power and its frequency. EMR of visible or lower frequencies (i.e., visible light, infrared, microwaves, and radio waves) is called non-ionizing radiation, because its photons do not individually have enough energy to ionize atoms or molecules or break chemical bonds. The effects of these radiations on chemical systems and living tissue are caused primarily by heating effects from the combined energy transfer of many photons. In contrast, high frequency ultraviolet, X-rays and gamma rays are called ionizing radiation, since individual photons of such high frequency have enough energy to ionize molecules or break chemical bonds. These radiations have the ability to cause chemical reactions and damage living cells beyond that resulting from simple heating, and can be a health hazard.

...and a hearty blah blah to you

Moving forward to: Entropy in thermodynamics and information theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_in_thermodynamics_and_information_theory

The logarithm in the thermodynamic definition is the natural logarithm. It can be shown that the Gibbs entropy formula, with the natural logarithm, reproduces all of the properties of the macroscopic classical thermodynamics of Rudolf Clausius. (See article: Entropy (statistical views)).
The logarithm can also be taken to the natural base in the case of information entropy. This is equivalent to choosing to measure information in nats instead of the usual bits (or more formally, shannons). In practice, information entropy is almost always calculated using base-2 logarithms, but this distinction amounts to nothing other than a change in units. One nat is about 1.44 shannons.

Blahbity, blahbity, blahbity through and through ...

 

[untermensche]

You merely ignore my point.

EM radiation does not have any information about color in it.

It did not come with information it can pass to cells through some magic.

It can excite cells. One frequency can excite in one way and another frequency can excite in another way and most frequencies don't excite at all.

Is it because they have no color information? Or because they do not cause a chemical reaction in the cell?

You can talk about the features of EM all day.

You have not demonstrated that any of it is information about color.

 

[fromderinside]

Thermodynamic and Information Theory are describing the same f'ing thing F.C.S. Why the hell do you think there's a Wiki chapter on entropy (dynamics of thermodynamics and Information). Whatever variation exists in energy exists as information and that includes information about things that interact with visible frequencies, like some chemical arrangements, leaf properties etc.

I'll give you that we name those properties we see as color. It, 'color', exists independent of our blessing.

Why don't you try to dismiss the effect of other EM frequencies as not having thus or so information in them? You apparently accept that something that interacts with some chemicals in cells excite cells selectively. That is information.

Mate!

 

[untermensche]

You have given me nothing.

You have nothing.

There is no information about color in EM radiation because there does not have to be.

It is not needed with a brain that can create and could not be transferred even if it existed.

 

[fromderinside]

What is light sensitive are molecules that react to visible light frequencies. It's a matter of physics that when color sensitive molecules come are struck visible light spectrum photons they will only absorb some of the visible light spectrum leaving very selective frequencies to reflected into the environment often to be detected by other light sensitive molecules.

You have your argument perched upside down. Its not no color because it does not have to be. It is there is color because the physical world takes advantage of light spectrum and intensity because it is useful and it can.

Human evolution has provided the means for such light to be detected, organized, constructed by neurons to become color information within the nervous system. The fact that these photons are within a range of frequencies to which material interacts with them selectively provide the basis for that information to become a color spectrum.

It is not circumstantial that stars radiate photons at these frequencies in abundance since the physics underlying the creation of energy in stars is determined by the amount and composition of matter converted to energy by the pressure of gravity of these stars.

The very notion much of life evolved the capacity to detect and process frequency and intensity variations in EM energy gives lie to the notion that there is no information in light and a lot of that that information is light color. The previous statement works just as well for taste, smell, hearing, touch, heat, and tissue destruction.

The ideas that Claude Shannon worked out about information comes from an understanding material entropy. That the two are linked is not surprising since both provide the bases for determining laws of information and thermodynamics. All material energy provides information, else humans could never develop laws of physics.

You missed the boat. Better luck next time.

 

[untermensche]

What is light sensitive are molecules that react to visible light frequencies.

These photoreceptor cells convert the light into electrical impulses which are transmitted to the brain via nerve fibers. For an image to be recognized, many photoreceptor cells will be activated and the visual information will be transported to the brain via numerous nerve fibers. The brain then determines, according to which nerve fibers carried the electrical impulse, which photoreceptors were activated by the light, and then creates a picture (Figure 2).

The first step in the monochrome vision process, after light hits the rod cell, is for the chromophore 11-cis-retinal to isomerize to all-trans-retinal. This event is best understood in terms of molecular orbitals, orbital energy, and electron excitation.

we perceive color through three fundamental receptors: red-absorbing, green-absorbing, and blue-absorbing cone cells. Each color in the visible spectrum can be made by a mixture of these three primary colors recognized by the three types of cone cells. Each type of cone cell contains a different protein bound to 11-cis-retinal and has its own characteristic absorption spectrum, corresponding to the particular pigment protein that it contains.

Orange light, for instance, is absorbed by both the green- and red-absorbing pigments, but the latter pigments absorb the orange light more efficiently. When the brain receives the combination of signals from the green- and red-absorbing cones, it interprets this as orange light.

http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Vision/Vision.html

To a brain energy in what is called the "green part of the spectrum" plus what is called the "red part of the spectrum" equals orange.

Of course to us red plus green does not equal orange.

The experience does not match the stimulation.

Because the stimulation has no information about color.