• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

COLOUR

Every physical transaction can be considered information. Applying this thought to biological systems it is clear that both entropy and information can be applied to all living thing transactions.

Check this out.

Information and Entropy in Biological Systems: https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/nimbios/nimbios_baez.pdf

All these ideas of Shannon may be important in understanding:
1. communication between organisms
2. the nervous system, which communicates signals via nerve impulses and neurotransmitters
3. other forms of intercellular communication, for example via hormones and cytokines
4. intracellular communication, for example via gene expression and gene regulation

I certainly like using it this way at every level biological abstraction from sense transaction through to perceptual transaction, from chemical transaction to system communication. ...from population to species to individual to system to function, to micro transaction.
 
You use the term "information" loosely. You somewhat understand the concept of information but you have wild ideas about how information might be transferred.

Yes, a molecular transformation is information.

The brain uses this information to create the experience of color.

But something causing a molecular transformation is not passing information about itself to the molecule.

If you lift the little flag on your mailbox up you have created information for the mailman.

But you have not transferred information about yourself to the mailbox (excluding finger prints which is not involved in the message). The mailman has no idea who moved it.

You have physically changed the mailbox. That is all.

The same is true with energy changing the configuration of a molecule.

The energy has no information about color.

The brain has information about color.

The human has a desire for his mail to be taken but is not passing on that desire to the mailbox when a flag is moved. The mailbox knows nothing about the person and nothing about mail.

The molecule that is transformed knows nothing about the energy that caused it, several kinds of energy can cause it, and nothing about the color created, that depends entirely on which other cells were stimulated. That one cell can be stimulated and many colors created from the information. In itself it does not create anything. Color is created from the information from many cells, not from the information from a single cell.
 
... something causing a molecular transformation is not passing information about itself to the molecule.
You miss the point of how evolution works. If some mutation or other genetic accident gets passed on to following generations it probably has something to do with benefiting one in surviving or be an unimportant at that time change.

Those benefits include wiring, information, and any thing else, say providing means to pass input to processing, necessary for passing on one's genes to the next generation. There is no titular head deciding what is seen and what is not seen from that which arrives at sensorium. If the information is important then the realizing apparatus is going to get it. Sensory effects tend go from proximal to distal and only rarely are found risen the other way around.

Yes it is true that one an predict whether genetic accident or mutation takes place by examining genetic molecule structure.

Those observations suggests two things to me. Genes most likely to be passed forward without mutation or accident are nearest to essential system genes and genes most in play due to weak location or susceptible to changing environments are most likely to be experience driving mutations or experience genetic accident.
 
I agree with some of what this guy says but not all of it.

But he does explain the relationship of experience to "reality" in evolutionary terms.

His evolutionary simulations show that the chances of what we experience as being a replication of "reality" as 0.

They show that what we experience are related to evolutionary "fitness", odds of survival. Not related to "reality".



This guy is a professor in the Department of Cognitive Sciences at the University of California, Irvine, with joint appointments in the Department of Philosophy, the Department of Logic and Philosophy of Science, and the School of Computer Science.
 
Well I, as a retired one of those, can attest he has his shit together. Now would you point out where he and I disagree?

You claim that the experience of color is merely the mind experiencing what is there.

He says that idea is wrong.

Experience is related to the evolutionary fitness of the experience, how well the experience allows the organism to survive. Experience is not the brain trying to faithfully express "reality".

I differ from this guy because I believe size and shape must be faithfully represented for something to swing through trees. I believe objects are really there.

But there is no way for an evolving brain to know what is the proper color to produce. You make the wrong representation of the size and shape of the branch as you swing through the tree and you are dead.

You randomly make a food source yellow and you have a better chance to find it.

Colors are randomly produced initially and the productions that have the greatest fitness win out.
 
First I don't actually believe experiencing is material. It is theater and it must depend on what the being is and what the being is processing. Of course it is not reality. It is interpretation of what is input in correspondence to what the being is, an evolved living processor.

Believe me the mind isn't constructing models of itself swinging through trees. Those are already in place in the cerebrum as specific activities.

Fitness isn't something that directs, it is the explanation for how things are so structured.

It seems rather redundant to create color when color is frequency and is part of the sensing system. It's much easier to explain when elements are in place than it is to ignore that and move creation to a respondent entity way after the fact to suit your false interpretation of what is fitness. Its not about Atlas. It's about gravity and the presence of the rock.
 
So goodbye to all your nonsense about the experience of color being a faithful representation of the external world.

Nothing directs, but fitness determines what remains of all the random mutations and their products.

Everything arises randomly.

The ability to experience the size and shape of an object arises randomly.

And it's usefulness for survival has kept it around and refined it.

An experience of a color arises randomly.

And the experience of color that provides the greatest fitness for the organism remains.

The experience has nothing to do with the energy stimulating it.

The experience is all about fitness.
 
Not bad until you bait switch shifted from objective to subjective behavior. Subjective isn't really at the behest of random molecular change. The stuff coursing through your veins and organs makes subjective more whimsical. here and now.

But experience, consciousness, self? Well they are the result of plans, games, ideas which can be subject to learning, recasting outcomes and the like.

The ability to sense and proportion are part of brain design, that they have variation do to mood and hunger and physical readiness are what makes them experiences, not really there as represented by what is senses. Are you trying to say that color is the result of mood. Well it may be colored or distorted a bit by adrenalin, testosterone, and the like. But created thusly? Certainly not.

What one makes of what one senses is the subjective aspect of what one has processed, the self, consciousness, and experience.

Very little arises randomly. The squareness that the brain can reconstruct from sensed input follows very closely the dictates of genetic manipulation as properly as chance and impact of fidelity are necessary to get by.

You misread the UC Irvine professor's analyses. Truly cell networks can result in delivering faithful as necessary representations in the Brain. What makes experience unfaithful to the physical input from outside are the metabolic and energetic agencies produced on the inside to make the human work.

One need not be a genius to realize that if there is important stuff in the environment senses, if possible, will develop mechanisms and capability for processing it. One will also realize that beings do not operate on sense alone, Energy must be consumed, processed, delivered, and used by the being. Driving agents like adrenalin, testosterone, estrogen, and other mechanisms need be run and controlled for waste, sleep, vegetative and recovery functions among others.

The being is managed through several processes, and regulated by several other processes. All of these are attended by gene variation, through fitness. That does not mean that what is sensed is later created as experience. That means experience reflects the totality of consciousness, sense, emotion, status, direction, readiness, attraction, and hunger, and capability.
 
EVERYTHING arises randomly.

Your religious beliefs won't change that.

The ability to experience the proper shape and size of the obstacle arose randomly.

But when that random occurrence happened it was a survival advantage and it remained.

Nothing is swinging from colors but animals need food.

If their food is brightly colored by chance they will find it easier.

Color will be related to making food sources easier to find and making grasping the tree easier to do and to making the predator more apparent to avoid it.

It will not be related to frequency of energy.

That is just the hand pushing the button with the brain creating the "most fit" experience for the environment.
 
With just a simple lump of clay .......

Sheesh.

What is random if not in reference to order. and why in the cortex and not at the receptor? I mean way before there was decision processes there were detection processes.

You are bound up in your enlightenment training sir. Time to usher in the 20th and 21st centuries. Hope you don't suffer what happened to that poor couch potato in Max Headroom.
 
There is no real world correlate to pain.

Pain is pure creation.

A damaged nerve does not equal pain. It just equals a change in information to the brain.

That change becomes the experience of pain after the brain constructs the experience.

The brain creates experience from information that has nothing to do with the experience.
 
OMG!!!

No answer so kick it down the road.

Color is but nocuous stimulus isn't?

Sheesh.

The NS responds to damaged tissue through nerves that detect evidence of damage from receptors in the vicinity of the damage passes it up the NS to processing areas in spine, hind brain and cortex. Looks like a sensory pathway, acts like a sensory pathway, IS a sensory pathway.
 
You are totally wrong and your hand waving is not interesting.

A wave of EM energy has no information about color.

I will wait infinite time for you to show me some information about color in it.

Having a wavelength is not information about color.

Having an energy level is not information about color.

Photons moving don't have information about color.

Color is an experience related to the evolutionary success of the experience.
 
Your declaration machine fails. You never provide evidence for your contention that experience, or equivalently. arbitrary assignment of something called this or that color occurs when one experiences color.

Color is what the eye dictates is color. That is receptors in the eye are selectively sensitive to specific frequency ranges centering at red, yellow/green and blue. These are identified by which photosensitive substance responds at particular receptors to light falling upon them. By the way, that is information, and every visual receptor with the same material responds to the same frequencies providing similar information. Further like frequencies are grouped together in every region where, say, blue light, is detected resulting in a corresponding topographical representation in many cortical areas where light is processed.

Particular frequency/energy ranges are interchangeable attributes to which the material responds. One can also find these relationships in the temperature of sources from which light arises. The higher the temperature of the source the more towards blue, shorter wavelength frequencies, higher energy, light tends to be emitted.

It is a great mistake to say color isn't detected and transmitted at the receptor since only specific light characteristic of a particular color/temperature signature makes theses cell act. Whatever you want to label it, it is does form the basis for our perception of the color of things. It is an obvious misconception to think or believe that color is assigned arbitrarily in experience since the information leading to assignment is available at the receptor.
 
Once again a bunch of words.

But not one of them is an explanation of where color information exists on a beam of energy.

Frequency is not color information.

Energy level is not color information.

A photon is not color information.

A stimulation of a cell is information. But the cell has no idea what stimulated it.

Stimulating a cell is not giving it information about color.

You have not shown any information about color in EM energy.

There is none.

EM energy does not exist to tell humans about the world.

Any connection to it is blind luck. Being stimulated due to blind luck is not being an agent to receive information.
 
I'm going to point out your problems.

Once again a bunch of words.

Yes, A bunch of words that explain what I mean by INFORMATION

But not one of them is an explanation of where color information exists on a beam of energy.

A beam of energy is information. You state it as the character of energy, a beam. IN-FOR-MA-TION!

Frequency is not color information.

Frequency and color characterize the same thing, energy. INFORMATION!

Energy level is not color information.

You are right. Energy power is not color in it is ampliltue/ brightness of color. INFORMATION!

A photon is not color information.

A photon is information. A photon in the visible light range is color. INFORMATION!

A stimulation of a cell is information. But the cell has no idea what stimulated it.

Of course not. Cells are just working parts of things that process inputs to produce and understand what produces them. INFORMATION raw, INFORMATION in context.

Stimulating a cell is not giving it information about color.

Wrong. Cell stimulation is the transfer of information. Stimulating a color receptor is the beginning of the process of transferring color information. INFORMATION!

You have not shown any information about color in EM energy.

What the hell is color temperature and what the hell is difference appearance of different things upon which light has shown but some sum of energies that appear optically different because they reflect light differently from other things receiving the same light. INFORMATION!

Since I've demolished your litany your conclusions are worthless INFORMATION!
 
A beam of energy is information. You state it as the character of energy, a beam. IN-FOR-MA-TION!


Not information about color.

You can't show me any information about color in it.

All you can say is it is a stimulus that creates the experience of color.

Frequency and color characterize the same thing, energy. INFORMATION!

Delusion.

Frequency is information about the number of waves in a certain period of time.

It has nothing to do with color.

You are right. Energy power is not color in it is ampliltue/ brightness of color. INFORMATION!

Energy level corresponds to wavelength.

It has nothing to do with color.

A photon is information. A photon in the visible light range is color. INFORMATION!

Merely being information does not make it information about color.

Every wavelength of EM energy has photons.

None of the photons have information about color.

Wrong. Cell stimulation is the transfer of information.


More delusion.

You have caused the cell to change. You have caused the cell to create it's own information. Not transferred information.

Adding heat or any energy to a cis-molecule and turning it into a trans-molecule is not transferring information.

Hitting a nail is not transferring information about the hammer to the nail.

Your idea that there is information transfer because a molecule is transformed is voodoo hogwash.

It shows a lack of understanding of energy and what happens when energy acts on systems.
 
citing these lines as the reason for providing you a bit of information about the relation between mass-energy and information

Adding heat or any energy to a cis-molecule and turning it into a trans-molecule is not transferring information.

Hitting a nail is not transferring information about the hammer to the nail.

Your idea that there is information transfer because a molecule is transformed is voodoo hogwash.

In fact .... Just trying to bring you up to date with the Jones'

 [B]Entropy in thermodynamics and information theory[/B]
Theoretical relationship

Despite the foregoing, there is a difference between the two quantities. The information entropyΗ can be calculated for any probability distribution (if the "message" is taken to be that the event i which had probability pi occurred, out of the space of the events possible), while the thermodynamic entropy S refers to thermodynamic probabilities pi specifically. The difference is more theoretical than actual, however, because any probability distribution can be approximated arbitrarily closely by some thermodynamic system.[citation needed]Moreover, a direct connection can be made between the two. If the probabilities in question are the thermodynamic probabilities pi: the (reduced) Gibbs entropy σ can then be seen as simply the amount of Shannon information needed to define the detailed microscopic state of the system, given its macroscopic description. Or, in the words of G. N. Lewis writing about chemical entropy in 1930, "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more". To be more concrete, in the discrete case using base two logarithms, the reduced Gibbs entropy is equal to the average of the minimum number of yes–no questions needed to be answered in order to fully specify the microstate, given that we know the macro-state.
Furthermore, the prescription to find the equilibrium distributions of statistical mechanics—such as the Boltzmann distribution—by maximizing the Gibbs entropy subject to appropriate constraints (the Gibbs algorithm) can be seen as something not unique to thermodynamics, but as a principle of general relevance in statistical inference, if it is desired to find a maximally uninformative probability distribution, subject to certain constraints on its averages. (These perspectives are explored further in the article Maximum entropy thermodynamics.)
\
The Shannon entropy in information theory is sometimes expressed in units of bits per symbol. The physical entropy may be on a "per quantity" basis (h) which is called "intensive" entropy instead of the usual total entropy which is called "extensive" entropy. The "shannons" of a message (Η) are its total "extensive" information entropy and is h times the number of bits in the message.


A direct and physically real relationship between h and S can be found by assigning a symbol to each microstate that occurs per mole, kilogram, volume, or particle of a homogeneous substance, then calculating the 'h' of these symbols. By theory or by observation, the symbols (microstates) will occur with different probabilities and this will determine h. If there are N moles, kilograms, volumes, or particles of the unit substance, the relationship between h (in bits per unit substance) and physical extensive entropy in nats is:

{\displaystyle S=k_{\mathrm {B} }\ln(2)Nh}
c10cc3654b0e1169e7d70ae1f36f5a55e60d6953
where ln(2) is the conversion factor from base 2 of Shannon entropy to the natural base e of physical entropy. N h is the amount of information in bits needed to describe the state of a physical system with entropy S. Landauer's principle demonstrates the reality of this by stating the minimum energy E required (and therefore heat Q generated) by an ideally efficient memory change or logic operation by irreversibly erasing or merging N h bits of information will be S times the temperature which is
E=Q=Tk_\ln(2)Nh,}
92eef002636b73ded52eb29ebf68905df5cb62f4
where h is in informational bits and E and Q are in physical Joules. This has been experimentally confirmed.[3]
Temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy per particle in an ideal gas (kelvins =
2/3​
joules/kB) so the J/K units of kB is dimensionless (joule/joule). kb is the conversion factor from energy in
3/2​

kelvins to joules for an ideal gas. If kinetic energy measurements per particle of an ideal gas were expressed as joules instead of kelvins, kb in the above equations would be replaced by 3/2. This shows that S is a true statistical measure of microstates that does not have a fundamental physical unit other than the units of information, in this case nats, which is just a statement of which logarithm base was chosen by convention.

Criticism

.....

Ultimately, the criticism of the link between thermodynamic entropy and information entropy is a matter of terminology, rather than substance. Neither side in the controversy will disagree on the solution to a particular thermodynamic or information-theoretic problem.

Interjecting here. Obviously you disagree with both views so why not demonstrate to us why you do so believe. I've provided plenty of reference with which you can work. Standing by hand already on hips inprepartation for ...

Oh, and don't bother to quibble with the style or clarity of quotes. I've provided reference for all three articles for which I've cut and pasted summaries.

Rubber meets the road:

The mass-energy-information equivalence principle http://https://aip.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1063/1.5123794

ABSTRACT
Landauer’s principle formulated in 1961 states that logical irreversibility implies physical irreversibility and demonstrated that information is physical. Here we formulate a new principle of mass-energy-information equivalence proposing that a bit of information is not just physical, as already demonstrated, but it has a finite and quantifiable mass while it stores information. In this framework, it is shown that the mass of a bit of information at room temperature (300K) is 3.19 × 10-38 Kg. To test the hypothesis we propose here an experiment, predicting that the mass of a data storage device would increase by a small amount when is full of digital information relative to its mass in erased state. For 1Tb device the estimated mass change is 2.5 × 10-25 Kg.

IV. CONCLUSION
In this letter the Landauer’s principle is extrapolated to the mass - energy - information equivalence principle by providing viable arguments that the physical nature of digital information requires a bit of information to have a very small, non-zero mass. This is a very abstract concept with some speculative aspects, but it has the virtue of being verifiable in a laboratory environment and a possible experiment to validate the proposed idea is described in this letter. The experiment is achievable and, a successful test would offer a direct experimental confirmation of the mass - energy - information equivalence principle with far reaching implications in physics, cosmology, big data, computation and technologies.

Within the digital Universe concept, all the baryonic matter has an associated information content.
11 The estimated mass of a bit of information at T = 2.73K is mbit = 2.91 × 10-40 Kg. Assuming that all the missing dark matter is in fact information mass, the initial estimates (to be reported in a different article) indicate that ∼1093 bits would be sufficient to explain all the missing dark matter in the visible Universe.

Remarkably, this number is reasonably close to another estimate of the Universe information bit content of ∼10
87 given by Gough in 2008 via a different approach.12 In fact, one could argue that information is a distinct form of matter, or the 5th state, along the other four observable solid, liquid, gas, and plasma states of matter. It is expected that this work will stimulate further theoretical and experimental research, bringing the scientific community one-step closer to understanding the abstract nature of matter, energy and information in the Universe.

Thermodynamics from information https://arxiv.org/pdf/1805.10282.pdf

Thermodynamics, and in particular work extraction from non-equilibrium states, has been studied in the quantum domain, in the recent years. It introduces radically new insights into quantum statistical and thermal processes. In much these studies, be it classical or quantum, thermal baths are assumed to be considerably large in size compared to systems under consideration. That is why, the baths remains always thermal, with same temperature before and after it interacts with a system. Also, an equilibrated system always shares the same temperature with the bath. Indeed, the assumption large is not fulfilled in every situation. If the baths are finite and small systems, the standard formulation of thermodynamics breaks down. The first problem one would encounter is the inconsistency in the notion of temperature itself. A finite bath could go out of thermal equilibrium, by exchanging energy with a system. Such a situation is relevant for thermodynamics that applies to quantum regime, where system and bath could be small and comparable in size. To incorporate such scenarios, we need to develop a temperature independent thermodynamics, where the bath could be small or large and will not have a special status. Here, we have introduced temperature independent formulation of thermodynamics as an exclusive consequence of (coarse-grained) information conservation. The information is measured in terms of von Neumann entropy.

The formulation is relied on the fact that systems with same entropy can be inter-convertible using entropy preserving operations. Therefore, the states with same entropy forms a constant entropy manifold and there exists a state that possesses minimal amount of energy. This state with minimal energy are known as a completely passive state, which assumes a Boltzmann–Gibb’s canonical form with an intrinsic temperature. The energy of a completely passive state is defined as the bound energy, as this energy cannot be extracted by any entropy preserving operations. For any given state, the free energy is defined as the difference between the internal energy and the bound energy, as this amount of energy can be accessible by means of entropy preserving operations. As shown in [40],two different states possessing identical energy and entropy are thermodynamically equivalent.

Such equivalence enables us to exploit energy-entropy diagram to understand bound, free energies geometrically. With these machinery, we have introduced a completely new definition of heat in terms of bound energy, applicable for arbitrary systems and without any reference to a temperature. We have formulated the laws of thermodynamics accordingly and, as we have seen, they are a consequence of the reversible dynamics of the underlying physical theory.

In particular:
• Zeroth law is a consequence of information conservation.

• First and second laws are a consequence of energy conservation, together with information conservation.

• Third law is a consequence of "strict" information conservation (i.e. microscopic reversibility or unitarity).

There is no third law for processes that only respect "coarse-grained" information conservation. We have applied our formalism to the heat engines that consist of finite bath and demonstrated that the maximum efficiency is in general less, compared to an ideal Carnot’s engine. We have also introduced a resource theoretic framework for intrinsic temperature based thermodynamics. This approach enables us to address the problem of inter-state transformations and work extraction. These results are given a geometric meaning, in terms of the energy-entropy diagram. The information conservation based framework for thermodynamics can be extended to multiple conserved quantities [34]. Analogously, charge-entropy and resource theory can given in this scenario. The extraction of a generalized potential (i.e. linear combinations of charges), becomes analogous to the work extraction (the single charge case).An immediate question arises is that to what extent the formalism can be extended beyond coarse-grained information conservation operations. This is an interesting open question, as in that case, there would be a different notion of bound energy and possibly many more equivalence classes of states. It is also far from clear if energy entropy diagrams would be meaningful there.

Bottom line: If I say energy I can equivalently mean information.

I'm with DBT here. You re way off base or way out of your league.

Moreover I'm confident you haven't the theoretical or practical knowledge to properly discuss what I've just presented.
 
Yes.

And the tea in China is pretty costly.

You have provided no information ABOUT COLOR in EM energy.

Babbling about information is not talking about INFORMATION ABOUT COLOR.

You can wave your hands all day.

Nobody is buying your nonsense.

Energy converting a molecule from trans to cis (you have no idea what that means) is not transferring information about color to the molecule.

When the liver transforms the same molecule from cis to trans it is not transferring information about color to the molecule.

When heat is added to a molecule and it transforms from cis to trans the heat is not transferring information about color to the molecule.

Nothing about a trans to cis transformation is information about color.

Go take an organic chemistry class and learn something.

Your voodoo nonsense about a simple trans to cis transformation is blind absurdity.

Your position is anthropocentric stupidity.

"The energy causes the experience of color therefore the energy must have information about color. Even though I can't show any kind of information about color in it."

"The hand pushed a key therefore the computer got information about the hand."

Energy passing information about what a brain should create as an experience is an evolutionary impossibility.

What brains create in response to stimulation is pure random contingency. The random contingencies that provide a survival advantage will have a greater chance to survive.
 
Back
Top Bottom