COLOUR

[fromderinside]

...This isomerization causes the Schiff-base nitrogen atom to move approximately 5 Å, assuming that the cyclohexane ring of the retinal group remains fixed. In essence, the light energy of a photon is converted into atomic motion. The change in atomic positions, like the binding of a ligand to other 7TM receptors, sets in train a series of events that lead to the closing of ion channels and the generation of a nerve impulse.....

This clearly says what is happening. Light energy is converted, not recognized.

Cells don't recognize molecules don't recognize. End this silliness.

That a cell has a substance that is sensitive to light of particular frequency is astounding.

That the cell processed that light input into a nerve impulse is astounding.

You don't think that the process of evolution would stop there do you?

Of course not.

Kolb and others have described neuronal arrangements that sort out these various transductions in to systems systems and tables of associations among the neurons and their orientations to lead to cortical processes that have been identified as color-orientation figures. In other words the magic is in the combinations of inputs via processing that leads to a resulting index table for color-physical orientation used to build perception. The source of mind is in the processing. Only we don't have to call it of mind any more. That is because we have the entire process laid at out through the effort of scientists who worked many decades to get there.

 

[DBT]

An intelligent system acquires and processes information, making decisions and taking actions according to sets of criteria. Criteria being a body of information that informs on the cost to benefit of taking this action over that action, or suffer this in the short term to gain that benefit in the long term.

A system can only process information it has mechanisms to recognize.

The nervous system has mechanisms that recognize the presence of trans retinal.

The system does nothing when cis retinal is in the cell.

But when it is converted to trans retinal the cell recognizes the trans retinal and reacts reflexively.

The cell has mechanisms that recognize trans retinal.

The cell has no mechanisms that can get information from the light.

Color is something that exists within the visual experience. The brain creates the visual experience using genetically created processes from (+,-) information about cis to trans transformations.

Color does not exist as a property of things in the world. It is a property of the mind. The mind experiences color, not the brain. The brain reflexively creates the experience of color when cells react to the presence of trans retinal.

Thinking color exists in the world or in energy is woo.

And the world is filled with this woo.

Holy Mackeral. Where to begin? I suspect that there's nothing that can be said that won't be misconstrued or dismissed in favour of unfounded notions.

 

[fromderinside]

Cheese.

 

[untermensche]

An intelligent system acquires and processes information, making decisions and taking actions according to sets of criteria. Criteria being a body of information that informs on the cost to benefit of taking this action over that action, or suffer this in the short term to gain that benefit in the long term.

A system can only process information it has mechanisms to recognize.

The nervous system has mechanisms that recognize the presence of trans retinal.

The system does nothing when cis retinal is in the cell.

But when it is converted to trans retinal the cell recognizes the trans retinal and reacts reflexively.

The cell has mechanisms that recognize trans retinal.

The cell has no mechanisms that can get information from the light.

Color is something that exists within the visual experience. The brain creates the visual experience using genetically created processes from (+,-) information about cis to trans transformations.

Color does not exist as a property of things in the world. It is a property of the mind. The mind experiences color, not the brain. The brain reflexively creates the experience of color when cells react to the presence of trans retinal.

Thinking color exists in the world or in energy is woo.

And the world is filled with this woo.

Holy Mackeral. Where to begin? I suspect that there's nothing that can be said that won't be misconstrued or dismissed in favour of unfounded notions.

I waste my time trying to discus things with people that don't react in any way to my actual words or ideas.

Lets start easy for the children.

Do you understand this statement?

A system can only process information it has mechanisms to recognize.

Prove you understand it and I will try to teach you more.

 

[untermensche]

...This isomerization causes the Schiff-base nitrogen atom to move approximately 5 Å, assuming that the cyclohexane ring of the retinal group remains fixed. In essence, the light energy of a photon is converted into atomic motion. The change in atomic positions, like the binding of a ligand to other 7TM receptors, sets in train a series of events that lead to the closing of ion channels and the generation of a nerve impulse.....

This clearly says what is happening. Light energy is converted, not recognized.

Cells don't recognize molecules don't recognize. End this silliness.

That a cell has a substance that is sensitive to light of particular frequency is astounding.

That the cell processed that light input into a nerve impulse is astounding.

You don't think that the process of evolution would stop there do you?

Of course not.

Kolb and others have described neuronal arrangements that sort out these various transductions in to systems systems and tables of associations among the neurons and their orientations to lead to cortical processes that have been identified as color-orientation figures. In other words the magic is in the combinations of inputs via processing that leads to a resulting index table for color-physical orientation used to build perception. The source of mind is in the processing. Only we don't have to call it of mind any more. That is because we have the entire process laid at out through the effort of scientists who worked many decades to get there.

It is your silliness.

You think reaction to = getting information from.

The light on the wall reacts when the switch is pushed but there is no information transferred from the hand to the light. That is your silliness.

A molecule reacts to energy. Cellular mechanisms react to the presence of trans retinal.

Show me where information about the energy is transferred to the nervous system.

You have WOO, nothing else.

Kolb and others have described neuronal arrangements that sort out these various transductions in to systems systems and tables of associations among the neurons and their orientations to lead to cortical processes that have been identified as color-orientation figures. In other words the magic is in the combinations of inputs via processing that leads to a resulting index table for color-physical orientation used to build perception. The source of mind is in the processing. Only we don't have to call it of mind any more. That is because we have the entire process laid at out through the effort of scientists who worked many decades to get there.

Yes. The brain has mechanisms that convert (+,-) information about cis to trans transformations into the experience of color. It is clear. There can be no other way to have the experience of something. All experience is a creation of the brain.

The brain has no access to any information about energy. Only minds know about energy. Only minds have any information about energy. Minds understand the correlation between a specific wavelength and the experience of a specific color associated with that stimulus. Some minds understand color only exists in the mind. That's how we can discuss it. We have minds that experience color. There is no other way to know what color is. If a person can't experience red there is no way for that person to understand what red is. Talking about wavelengths won't help.

Every one of your points is dependent on a person experiencing color. You have no information about color other than your experience of it. A wavelength of energy is not information about color.

Energy is not colored and does not contain information about color. That is too silly an idea to believe an adult could believe it.

You have had ample time to try to demonstrate energy has color information contained in it.

But you have provided nothing but hand waving.

 

[untermensche]

What we will never see in this thread is a scientific paper that describes how information about color is transferred from light to the nervous system.

Every paper will say the same thing. If it is reputable.

It will say that energy causes a retinal molecule to shift from a cis configuration to a trans configuration.

None will say that energy transfers information about itself in this manner.

The idea that energy transfers information about itself to a retinal molecule is pseudo science.

The people that make the claim it does have no science to support their claim.

The wave of energy is converted to molecular energy and the molecule is enabled to rotate at one bond.

The rotation of the molecule has no information about the energy to transfer to the cell.

 

[untermensche]

 

[fromderinside]

What we will never see in this thread is a scientific paper that describes how information about color is transferred from light to the nervous system.

Every paper will say the same thing. If it is reputable.

It will say that energy causes a retinal molecule to shift from a cis configuration to a trans configuration.

None will say that energy transfers information about itself in this manner.

The idea that energy transfers information about itself to a retinal molecule is pseudo science.

The people that make the claim it does have no science to support their claim.

The wave of energy is converted to molecular energy and the molecule is enabled to rotate at one bond.

The rotation of the molecule has no information about the energy to transfer to the cell.

None of what you write disputes what I write. I write that evolution, a material process takes advantage of most any other material process that increases a being's likelihood of producing offspring. That we haven't, rather I explicitly haven't, listed one yet changes that dictum as it relates to vision.

Mind, experience, self, will have never been presented here as material processes.

Fish or cut bait.

 

[untermensche]

What we will never see in this thread is a scientific paper that describes how information about color is transferred from light to the nervous system.

Every paper will say the same thing. If it is reputable.

It will say that energy causes a retinal molecule to shift from a cis configuration to a trans configuration.

None will say that energy transfers information about itself in this manner.

The idea that energy transfers information about itself to a retinal molecule is pseudo science.

The people that make the claim it does have no science to support their claim.

The wave of energy is converted to molecular energy and the molecule is enabled to rotate at one bond.

The rotation of the molecule has no information about the energy to transfer to the cell.

None of what you write disputes what I write. I write that evolution, a material process takes advantage of most any other material process that increases a being's likelihood of producing offspring. That we haven't, rather I explicitly haven't, listed one yet changes that dictum as it relates to vision.

Mind, experience, self, will have never been presented here as material processes.

Fish or cut bait.

Look at the topic.

Color.

Color is purely an experience and nothing else.

There is no mechanism for color to be a representation of the colorless invisible energy that caused a molecule to shift.

Give me a mechanism.

Give me a mechanism where information about energy is transferred to the nervous system.

Saying "Evolution, Evolution" is not a mechanism. It is just more of your bad understanding of evolution.

Energy does not pass information when it causes a molecule to shift.

It is converted to another kind of energy.

Fish or learn something.

You are wrong about this but so commonly wrong you are like a Trump cultist thinking Trump was robbed.

 

[untermensche]

Only one way for the visual reflex to evolve.

Sheer chance.

By chance alone a retinal molecule is in the cell.

By chance alone it is stimulated by energy striking it within the cell and shifts. It is not chance that molecules can be effected by energy. That is chemistry.

By chance alone the cell develops ways to react to that shift.

By chance you have a mechanism.

Once you have a mechanism evolution can now do something with it.

Like create the visual experience.

With bats it was different. Their brains create a visual experience from sound waves.

Vision is an experience or it is woo.

 

[fromderinside]

The cell has only material options. You have to have a material option else no evolution.

Chance isn't an option. Sheer chance is just repeating yourself. What remains is material for chance to operate on. The money shot is the material option. Without that there is no chance. If there is a material option there needn't be either a miracle or experience, or magic thinking. We just combine many material consequents of by-chance change resulting in behavior.

You give up too easily. There are support cells for receptors. There are many connected receptors via support cells and process cells. There appear to be several transformation structures parsing and integrating between receptor and cortex. I'm pretty sure that neural comparator processes can parse color from nerve impulse from specific locations and sources which can be used to generate a color table from the massive inputs providing confirming information results through sorting.

The fact that receptors are only passing input from receptors via transduction of specific light frequency to nerve impulse provide a huge leg up in what the function of the system must be if it is to provide additional information to the being. We know that light input of specific frequencies have been received and transmitted up stream. We know this because we have observed and defined how it is done.

Millions of cells are doing this with their particular receptive attributes. We know what is passed is information simply by how the system responds to the inputs. Color tables are created, an opponent processes system is set up, orientation and color are prototropically preserved and combined at cortex.

There is no need for the interfering of presumptive experience, consciousness, self, or anything else needed to complete the visual picture.

Let the big boys in the white coats finish the task. Then settle back to rewriting what the human is doing with his visual sense based on knowledge of what is going on within the visual processes.

Don't you think it is just silly to perpetuate versions of tales up to twenty-five hundred years old just to justify religion, uniqueness of woman, and other fictions about how women behave.

You'll soon forget you were inserting mind, consciousness, self, into brain processes.

 

[untermensche]

I don't have to wait for anything to fully understand the initial information entering the nervous system in the visual reflex. The only possible information the visual system can work with.

That is fully understood. Fully reduced to material events.

The initial information is a molecular transformation. That is what the energy does.

That is the information the nervous system uses to create the visual experience.

Initial information [(+,-) information about molecular transformations] -------> Processing (incredibly complicated and not fully understood) -------> Visual experience

It is impossible for energy to be the initial information since the energy does not pass information. It creates the initial information.

The idea that the energy by some miracle passes information about itself to the nervous system is a dead horse. I'm tired of beating it.

You give up too easily. There are support cells for receptors. There are many connected receptors via support cells and process cells. There appear to be several transformation structures parsing and integrating between receptor and cortex. I'm pretty sure that neural comparator processes can parse color from nerve impulse from specific locations and sources which can be used to generate a color table from the massive inputs providing confirming information results through sorting.

That is all contained in the category called "Processing".

The processing of the initial information is complex. True.

 

[fromderinside]

You cling to experience as if it were a dear relative feared to be passing. The 'experience' is all the little things the nervous system extracts from received inputs mostly via visual pathways to fully develop what, how where when, how and why it is seen. What is made of it depends on other factors which ae also the result of brain processes measuring recognition, recent events, current tendencies, recent memory and so forth.

Busy little bees those neurons.

 

[DBT]

Holy Mackeral. Where to begin? I suspect that there's nothing that can be said that won't be misconstrued or dismissed in favour of unfounded notions.

I waste my time trying to discus things with people that don't react in any way to my actual words or ideas.

Lets start easy for the children.

Do you understand this statement?

A system can only process information it has mechanisms to recognize.

Prove you understand it and I will try to teach you more.

Such arrogance from a position of ignorance. I suggest that you look in the mirror and question your own assumptions.

 

[untermensche]

Holy Mackeral. Where to begin? I suspect that there's nothing that can be said that won't be misconstrued or dismissed in favour of unfounded notions.

I waste my time trying to discus things with people that don't react in any way to my actual words or ideas.

Lets start easy for the children.

Do you understand this statement?

A system can only process information it has mechanisms to recognize.

Prove you understand it and I will try to teach you more.

Such arrogance from a position of ignorance. I suggest that you look in the mirror and question your own assumptions.

You couldn't show me one error I have made here.

I'm in the position of being absolutely right. Color information does not exist in energy.

You clearly don't want to engage in anything like an exchange of ideas.

You call ideas "declarations" like that has any meaning so you can fool yourself and run away from all ideas you can't handle.

I deal with ideas.

You run from them and call them "declarations".

Yes ideas are declarations in words. You have that much right.

 

[untermensche]

You cling to experience as if it were a dear relative feared to be passing. The 'experience' is all the little things the nervous system extracts from received inputs mostly via visual pathways to fully develop what, how where when, how and why it is seen. What is made of it depends on other factors which ae also the result of brain processes measuring recognition, recent events, current tendencies, recent memory and so forth.

Busy little bees those neurons.

The brain is far more complicated than you imagine. Yes.

The visual experience is far more complicated than you imagine. Yes.

You run from the reality of experience to live in your world of religious delusion. You do this with your mind. You make your conclusions freely.

All you have ever had access to in this existence are your experiences.

You have nothing else.

You can't tell me about anything besides something you have experienced.

A person cannot understand what red is unless they experience it.

Colors are only experiences. They do not exist in the world as anything beyond that.

I have a mechanism. I am the materialist here. The transformation of cis retinal to trans retinal is the initial mechanism that is the information that brain processes turn into the experience of color.

If you understood cellular biology you would understand that.

You have woo on your side. Some delusion that energy transfers information about itself to the cell without any mechanism to do it at all.

We know beyond doubt what the energy does and what happens to it.

The energy is converted to molecular energy and one bond in retinal momentarily breaks and the molecule rotates around that bond and the bond instantly reforms.

That's it for the energy. No mechanism to transfer information about itself. The energy is converted. End of story.

 

[steve_bank]

Huh?

You have to know what something is before you can look at the physics or chemistry of it.

Science does not have a clue what the mind is, what the phenomena of experience is.

Why do you hear your thoughts but not me?

What are thoughts in language such that you can hear them?

Where are "you" the thing that hears your thoughts?

Science can't answer these questions.



Minds are associated with brains but they are more than brains.

Minds experience thoughts and vision and all the senses, brains don't experience, they create experience. Create it for a mind.

Brains are reflexive machines.

Minds write poetry and enjoy it.

It is well understood that damage to specific areas of the brain affect specific functions.

Brains and minds have an association.

The analogy is: A mind getting information and controlling movement is like a person driving a car.

If the car blows a tire (has a stroke) the car does not handle very well anymore.

Yada Yada Yada as we say over here.

You are using imprecise terms. like information. That is tge problem with metaphysics.

In a coherent paragraph what exactly is your point you want to make ?

Are you arguing conciousness and awareness and perceptions are not based in physical biology? There is something else? Perception is not biology? Color is something other than cells interacting with radiation?

If at all possible define your terms with precision.

 

[untermensche]

Yada Yada Yada as we say over here.

Over where? That phrase is something Seinfeld watchers are very familiar with.

You are using imprecise terms. like information.

It's a general term but nothing imprecise about it. And it is up to those who claim energy somehow passes information to the nervous system to prove it. There is no way to prove it. Because it doesn't happen. We know what the energy is doing. There is no possible mechanism for energy to pass information to the nervous system.

That is tge problem with metaphysics.

Nonsense.

In a coherent paragraph what exactly is your point you want to make ?

Color is not a feature of energy. There is no information about color in energy.

From that a lot follows. Like color is a creation of the brain, not a property of objects in the world.

Objects reflect energy. That is their property. What human brains have evolved to make out of those reflections (colors) are not properties of the objects. They are properties of brains and minds.

Color is a property of the brain and the mind. Not a property of objects in the world.

There is no possible way for colors to be a property of objects in the world. We are not perceiving objects in the world. We are perceiving a representation of them within our minds.

Are you arguing conciousness and awareness and perceptions are not based in physical biology?

Why would you think that?

There is something else?

I don't think so. The mind is a biological product and it is not a brain.

Perception is not biology?

What is perceiving?

Color is something other than cells interacting with radiation?

Most definitely. Color is an experience and nothing else. It is not colorless invisible energy interacting with a molecule in cells.

 

[DBT]

Such arrogance from a position of ignorance. I suggest that you look in the mirror and question your own assumptions.

You couldn't show me one error I have made here.

I'm in the position of being absolutely right. Color information does not exist in energy.

You clearly don't want to engage in anything like an exchange of ideas.

You call ideas "declarations" like that has any meaning so you can fool yourself and run away from all ideas you can't handle.

I deal with ideas.

You run from them and call them "declarations".

Yes ideas are declarations in words. You have that much right.

Just offhand, wavelength is the information used by a brain to represent as colour in mental/subjective form. The physical world is composed of features and qualities, which is information, which the brain is an information processor....

 

[steve_bank]

Over where? That phrase is something Seinfeld watchers are very familiar with.



It's a general term but nothing imprecise about it. And it is up to those who claim energy somehow passes information to the nervous system to prove it. There is no way to prove it. Because it doesn't happen. We know what the energy is doing. There is no possible mechanism for energy to pass information to the nervous system.

That is tge problem with metaphysics.

Nonsense.

In a coherent paragraph what exactly is your point you want to make ?

Color is not a feature of energy. There is no information about color in energy.

From that a lot follows. Like color is a creation of the brain, not a property of objects in the world.

Objects reflect energy. That is their property. What human brains have evolved to make out of those reflections (colors) are not properties of the objects. They are properties of brains and minds.

Color is a property of the brain and the mind. Not a property of objects in the world.

There is no possible way for colors to be a property of objects in the world. We are not perceiving objects in the world. We are perceiving a representation of them within our minds.

Are you arguing conciousness and awareness and perceptions are not based in physical biology?

Why would you think that?

There is something else?

I don't think so. The mind is a biological product and it is not a brain.

Perception is not biology?

What is perceiving?

Color is something other than cells interacting with radiation?

Most definitely. Color is an experience and nothing else. It is not colorless invisible energy interacting with a molecule in cells.

A precise general term is oxymoron. Weak attempt at turning the table.

AAaannnddd....drum roll.... experience is biological unless you argue mind separate from brain. Thoughts and feelings are biological.

Beware The Jabberwock.