COLOUR

[fromderinside]

Cells knowing isn't a thing. Systems evolving are a thing. Guess where the information lies. Spot on.

So why are you going through this cells can't this and can't that?

No reason. You just drag dead cats across the trail.

What you need to philophosize about is how a nervous sensory system using elements sensitive to small patches of light frequency for processing color which you claim isn't there came to evolve.

 

[untermensche]

Cells knowing isn't a thing. Systems evolving are a thing. Guess where the information lies. Spot on.

So why are you going through this cells can't this and can't that?

No reason. You just drag dead cats across the trail.

What you need to philophosize about is how a nervous sensory system using elements sensitive to small patches of light frequency for processing color which you claim isn't there came to evolve.

Cells having a mechanism to gain information about the energy is necessary for the nervous system to use information about the energy.

The nervous system does not use information about the energy to construct color.

It uses information about what the energy causes. The nervous system reflexively responds to the movement of a nitrogen atom.

Information about the energy never enters the nervous system.

You have no mechanism and blindly think you don't need one.

Your position is a miracle and you don't understand that.

 

[DBT]

I will leave you twisting in the wind.

Not even able to say you chose your opinions freely.

If they have been forced upon you I have no interest in any of them.

I'm not the one twisting in the wind. Opinions are formed through a number of factors, the nature of the event, the psychology of the person, life experiences, likes, dislikes, views, etc, etc.....opinions don't pop out of a vacuum in a mind that operates independently of the brain.

 

[untermensche]

Anybody that has a real cellular mechanism where the nervous system learns about some feature of radiant energy has something to say in this thread.

No real mechanism = miracle

For the nervous system to know anything about the energy that caused a nitrogen atom to move five angstroms requires a miracle.

Color being some feature of energy is hogwash. A primitive understanding.

 

[Jarhyn]

Anybody that has a real cellular mechanism where the nervous system learns about some feature of radiant energy has something to say in this thread.

No real mechanism = miracle

For the nervous system to know anything about the energy that caused a nitrogen atom to move five angstroms requires a miracle.

Color being some feature of energy is hogwash. A primitive understanding.

Not exactly true.

Let's assume you knew for a moment the GUT of a deterministic universe. You could then know, through assumption, what was there without actually going there and then to see it at all. You would in essence be "psychic", assuming that you could, front the equation of everything, derive that data without replaying the whole thing from bang to now.

 

[untermensche]

Anybody that has a real cellular mechanism where the nervous system learns about some feature of radiant energy has something to say in this thread.

No real mechanism = miracle

For the nervous system to know anything about the energy that caused a nitrogen atom to move five angstroms requires a miracle.

Color being some feature of energy is hogwash. A primitive understanding.

Not exactly true.

Let's assume you knew for a moment the GUT of a deterministic universe. You could then know, through assumption, what was there without actually going there and then to see it at all. You would in essence be "psychic", assuming that you could, front the equation of everything, derive that data without replaying the whole thing from bang to now.

I don't understand what you're talking about.

This is about a human nervous system, on this planet, having some way to learn about the energy that transforms a molecule, inside a cell.

How does the nervous system learn about what caused the molecule to transform?

What is the evolved cellular mechanism it uses to gain that information?

 

[fromderinside]

Anybody that has a real cellular mechanism where the nervous system learns about some feature of radiant energy has something to say in this thread.

There you go again with something other than the being learning or knowing. Nervous system doesn't learn or know. Nervous system processes information received from external world. First step for is nervous system to receive particular external information.

 

[DBT]

Anybody that has a real cellular mechanism where the nervous system learns about some feature of radiant energy has something to say in this thread.

No real mechanism = miracle

For the nervous system to know anything about the energy that caused a nitrogen atom to move five angstroms requires a miracle.

Color being some feature of energy is hogwash. A primitive understanding.

Your dualism is a primitive belief, a belief that contradicts all evidence of brain agency. A belief you affirm and reaffirm over and over through a series of assertions, but studiously avoid explaining. It's quite clear that you can't.

 

[fromderinside]

Perhaps if untermensche would quite referring to some vague energy construct, get down to bolts and nuts, talk about electromagnetic energy, we all might find some context around which to discuss the problem.

 

[untermensche]

Anybody that has a real cellular mechanism where the nervous system learns about some feature of radiant energy has something to say in this thread.

There you go again with something other than the being learning or knowing. Nervous system doesn't learn or know. Nervous system processes information received from external world. First step for is nervous system to receive particular external information.

You are just making my point.

It is your absurd position that the nervous system is getting information about color from the energy, learning about the energy somehow.

I am glad you are starting to see the truth.

The truth is the brain has evolved mechanisms that create the experience of color based on the movement of nitrogen atoms.

Color is nothing but an experience.

You've had no point for pages.

You are terribly confused.

 

[fromderinside]

You are just making my point.

No I'm not making your point.

It is your absurd position that the nervous system is getting information about color from the energy, learning about the energy somehow.

The fact that the nervous system has many processes manipulating what they receive in different ways is evidence there are networks treating various aspects of what has been received from receptors is being processed. The articles I highlighted present that evidence providing a pathway from impulse to color processing in the visual system of the nervous system.

I am glad you are starting to see the truth.

I see your truth which is a belief based bit of handwaving for your declarations all without a bit of evidence such is true.

The truth is the brain has evolved mechanisms that create the experience of color based on the movement of nitrogen atoms.

What you write is that specific light frequencies induce action potentials. That is a stand alone declaration, evidence free, of belief only about whether the nervous system manipulating these action potentials uses them to reflect light frequencies and intensities as a color representing process or whether the nervous system creates a thing called experience that give us color. I have presented evidence that light processing cells produce action potentials differently depending on sensitivity and function. I have also presented evidence that light receptive cells are responsible for more than just fitting a spot to light. Most dramatically the cortex reflects light by frequency and orientation

Color is nothing but an experience.

Color is clearly shown as aspects of material processes associated with light leading to universal constancies in precept of detected information as color.

You've had no point for pages.

You don't know because you show no evidence you have read the evidence I present. All you are dong is stomping your feet and chanting the same tired, wrong litany.

You are terribly confused.

Obvious one of us is confused. Since I've provided evidence supporting my view and you've only continued to chant I must conclude you either have no response to my arguments or you are just a mindless color bigot.

 

[DBT]

Anybody that has a real cellular mechanism where the nervous system learns about some feature of radiant energy has something to say in this thread.

There you go again with something other than the being learning or knowing. Nervous system doesn't learn or know. Nervous system processes information received from external world. First step for is nervous system to receive particular external information.

You are just making my point.

It is your absurd position that the nervous system is getting information about color from the energy, learning about the energy somehow.

I am glad you are starting to see the truth.

The truth is the brain has evolved mechanisms that create the experience of color based on the movement of nitrogen atoms.

Color is nothing but an experience.

You've had no point for pages.

You are terribly confused.

Colour vision is not an arbitrary process.

 

[untermensche]

The fact that the nervous system has many processes manipulating what they receive in different ways is evidence there are networks treating various aspects of what has been received from receptors is being processed. The articles I highlighted present that evidence providing a pathway from impulse to color processing in the visual system of the nervous system.

This is handwaving.

You have no mechanism for the nervous system to learn anything about the energy that causes a molecule to shift.

The nervous system knows nothing about the energy therefore color information cannot possibly be transferred from the energy to the nervous system.

You will never show any color information in energy. It has none.

Your ideas are a miracle.

What you write is that specific light frequencies induce action potentials.

No they do not.

They cause a molecule to shift. The cell has no mechanism to know why the molecule shifted.

The cell has mechanisms that respond to the movement of a nitrogen atom. That is what leads to a possible action potential.

Your ideas are a miracle.

 

[untermensche]

Colour vision is not an arbitrary process.

The colors we experience are random contingencies of evolution. They are like a leg. Something that is useful for survival that arose randomly.

Nothing forced us beyond fitness for survival to experience color that way.

There is no color information in the external world.

There are just stimuli that cause an evolved brain to create color. Color is something evolved brains experience and nothing else.

The belief that light is somehow passing information about color is belief in a miracle. There is no mechanism for light to do it and no information about color in light to pass.

Ignorant humans look at the features we have discovered about energy, like wavelength, and claim it is color information without one shred of proof.

Why is it only energy that causes a molecule to shift that leads to the production of color and not all energy? All energy has a wavelength.

 

[fromderinside]

The nervous system doesn't learn. The nervous system processes information which goes in to what a being considers, another process, when it makes, another process, a choice, yet another process. Those are processes that go in to building a working memory for decision making that some call learning. Three or four processes does not learning make.

 

[untermensche]

The nervous system doesn't learn.

The nervous system changes according to the will.

If you will yourself to practice the guitar everyday your brain will change and the area of the motor cortex that allows for control of the hands will grow and become more efficient.

Over time playing the guitar will become easier because of this.

If you will yourself to think everyday that will become easier over time too.

Try it.

 

[untermensche]

The nervous system doesn't learn. The nervous system processes information which goes in to what a being considers, another process, when it makes, another process, a choice, yet another process. Those are processes that go in to building a working memory for decision making that some call learning. Three or four processes does not learning make.

Your absurd claim is that there is color information in radiant energy and the nervous system somehow learns about this information.

Of course it is only that part of the spectrum that causes cis retinal to shift to trans retinal that somehow has information about color in it.

How strange?

 

[fromderinside]

The nervous system doesn't learn. That's something beings do. Learn to read.

So what do you make of how melanopsin works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsically_photosensitive_retinal_ganglion_cell

[h=3]Melanopsin[edit][/h]Unlike other photoreceptor pigments, melanopsin has the ability to act as both the excitable photopigment and as a photoisomerase. Instead of requiring additional cells to revert between the two isoforms, from all-trans-retinal back into 11-cis-retinal before it can undergo another phototransduction, like the photoreceptor cones, which rely on Müller cells and retinal pigment epithelium cells for this conversion, melanopsin is able to isomerize all-trans-retinal into 11-cis-retinal when stimulated with light without help from additional cells.^[10] The two isoforms of melanopsin differ in their spectral sensitivity, for the 11-cis-retinal isoform is more responsive to shorter wavelengths of light, while the all-trans isoform is more responsive to longer wavelengths of light.^[12]

 

[DBT]

Colour vision is not an arbitrary process.

The colors we experience are random contingencies of evolution. They are like a leg. Something that is useful for survival that arose randomly.

What you claim goes contrary to all evidence. Colour vision would convey no benefits if it was random. Wiring a circuit board might be kinda problematic if one technician saw a red wire as yellow while another saw green wire as red.....

 

[untermensche]

Colour vision is not an arbitrary process.

The colors we experience are random contingencies of evolution. They are like a leg. Something that is useful for survival that arose randomly.

What you claim goes contrary to all evidence. Colour vision would convey no benefits if it was random. Wiring a circuit board might be kinda problematic if one technician saw a red wire as yellow while another saw green wire as red.....

Yes.

The leg would convey no benefits if it arose randomly. The gods must have designed it long ago.

You are totally ignorant of evolutionary theory and the mechanics of evolution.

In terms of evolution there is no possibly way for an evolving organism to know it is supposed to create the experience of "blue" when energy causes a molecule to change from a cis configuration to a trans (you have no clue what that means).

You are a rank amateur that understands little.

You confuse correlation with a stimulus with actual cause by that stimulus.

The experience of "green" is correlated with light energy but there is no information about green in the energy.

All the information about green is in evolved brains.

The blue light is correlated with my hand hitting a switch but my hand has no information about blue.