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Compatibilism: What's that About?

It has the appearance of choosing.

Can you describe real "choosing".

A real choice means that an alternate action is possible. Determinism does not allow the ability to choose otherwise.

Once again:

If you accept regulative control as a necessary part of free will, it seems impossible either way:
1. Free will requires that given an act A, the agent could have acted otherwise
2. Indeterminate actions happens randomly and without intent or control
3. Therefore indeterminism and free will are incompatible
4. Determinate actions are fixed and unchangeable
5. Therefore determinism is incompatible with free will

Actions, of course, proceed as determined, neither freely willed or freely chosen.
So no,you can't describe "real choosing" because the kind of choosing you demand to do is literally not real according to your broken and nonsensical definition of "possible" and "choice".

It sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.

It was not I who coined the term 'real choosing' - that was you.

I pointed out that there is no choosing, and can be no choosing within a determined system because all events evolve as determined, not chosen.

It is your objection and your logic that is broken because you don't account for the nature and implications of determinism, something that you have yet to grasp, but never will.

Never will understand the implications of determinism because your belief in compatibilism prevents it.

“...compatibilists can make their doctrine seem like robust common sense only by sweeping a mystery under the carpet ...I believe that it is possible to lift the carpet and display the hidden mystery. The notion of ‘not having a choice’ has a certain logic to it. One of the principles of this logic is, or so it seems, embodied in the following thesis, which I shall refer to as the No Choice Principle: Suppose that p and that no one has (or ever had) any choice about whether p. And suppose also that the following conditional (if-then) statement is true and that no one has (or ever had) any choice about whether it is true: if p, then q. It follows from these two suppositions that q and that no one has (or ever had) any choice about whether q.
...The No Choice Principle seems undeniably correct. How could I have a choice about anything that is an inevitably consequence of something I have no choice about? And yet ...the compatibilist must deny the No Choice Principle.” - Van Inwagen
 
<Trying really hard to last-word post the response away>
Again, DBT failing to understand "choice", "possibility", and "ability".

For the peanut gallery, this post contains exactly the thing DBT fails to understand:
I guess this all hangs on "ability".

According to determinism a specific state of affairs (SoA) will only ever produce one outcome - that SoA has no capability (ability) to produce any other outcome. There is no possibility that it "could".
So I've been trying to simplify my language for a while, and I will admit, it is HARD because this is a very hard thing to communicate concisely:

"Could", for me and for most, does not operate in the context of "Actual state of affairs".

First we take all the "regular laws" of the universe and keep them.

Then, we take all the state of the universe, copy that, and assume something of it. I will call this "image" of the state of affairs StateB.

So, in a lot more words than normal "could" is "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

Let's assume that this is not the case for the sake of discussion, that SoA is not StateB.

It is a TRUE statement that "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

It will always a true statement. It will have always have been a true statement. This is because the statement does not say anything about the actuality of the SoA being StateB, it only discusses IF it were. It will always have been true that he "could".

What will not be true is that SoA is StateB, and thus while he could, he will not.
 
Again, DBT failing to understand "choice", "possibility", and "ability".

Once again Jarhyn failing to understand her own definition of determinism and its implications, where all events proceed without deviation, regulative control or ability to do otherwise (possibilities), consequently; no choice.

choice
[tʃɔɪs] NOUN

1 - an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

The No Choice Principle: ''how could I have a choice about anything that is an inevitably consequence of something I have no choice about? And yet ...the compatibilist must deny the No Choice Principle.” - Van Inwagen
 
Again, DBT failing to understand "choice", "possibility", and "ability".

Once again Jarhyn failing to understand her own definition of determinism and its implications, where all events proceed without deviation, regulative control or ability to do otherwise (possibilities), consequently; no choice.

choice
[tʃɔɪs] NOUN

1 - an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

The No Choice Principle: ''how could I have a choice about anything that is an inevitably consequence of something I have no choice about? And yet ...the compatibilist must deny the No Choice Principle.” - Van Inwagen
I am not "her". This is the second time and I have already corrected you once AFAIK.

If you don't know, use an agnostic term. For the record, I prefer no mention made of sex or gender made at all where it isn't important.

The details I keep reserved for my friends.

It's right there in my "gender" tag. Specifically: no pls.

I defined the word possibility and choice through use in context and explained them carefully.

To be clear, this is about the foundational concept that lies underneath "ability", "possibility", and "choice".

You snipped those definitions so you wouldn't have to look at them.

Here they are again:
I guess this all hangs on "ability".

According to determinism a specific state of affairs (SoA) will only ever produce one outcome - that SoA has no capability (ability) to produce any other outcome. There is no possibility that it "could".
So I've been trying to simplify my language for a while, and I will admit, it is HARD because this is a very hard thing to communicate concisely:

"Could", for me and for most, does not operate in the context of "Actual state of affairs".

First we take all the "regular laws" of the universe and keep them.

Then, we take all the state of the universe, copy that, and assume something of it. I will call this "image" of the state of affairs StateB.

So, in a lot more words than normal "could" is "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

Let's assume that this is not the case for the sake of discussion, that SoA is not StateB.

It is a TRUE statement that "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

It will always a true statement. It will have always have been a true statement. This is because the statement does not say anything about the actuality of the SoA being StateB, it only discusses IF it were. It will always have been true that he "could".

What will not be true is that SoA is StateB, and thus while he could, he will not.

Again can we please get to the point where you stop trying to straw-man our positions by substituting different definitions of "could"/"ability"/"possibility" and conflating them with "will"
 
Your argument is based upon the notion that, if the choice was inevitable since the big bang, then it is AS IF choosing never really happened, and it is AS IF we had no choice, and it is AS IF the choice was already made by someone or something else . The problem is that all three of these figurative statements are literally false. Choosing does happen.

Let's consider the other events of that evening. We walked into the restaurant. We considered the menu of possibilities. We chose the salad. We ordered the salad.

Given causal necessity:
It was inevitable that we would walk into the restaurant.
It was inevitable that we would consider the menu of possibilities.
It was inevitable that we would choose the salad.
It was inevitable that we would order the salad.

Was walking into the restaurant an illusion? No.
Was considering the menu of possibilities an illusion? No.
Was choosing the salad an illusion? No.
Was ordering the salad in illusion? No.

You may disagree, but my conclusion is that the only illusion to be found in this scenario is the illusion that there is some kind of illusion. And that "illusion of an illusion" was caused by taking figurative statements literally.

If the World is under the sway of determinism, everything happens as determined, ... The process is not figurative.

Ah! You've found the SEP article on Causal Determinism by Carl Hoefer. Hoefer notes the figurative language himself in section “2.4 Laws of Nature”:

“In the physical sciences, the assumption that there are fundamental, exceptionless laws of nature, and that they have some strong sort of modal force, usually goes unquestioned. Indeed, talk of laws “governing” and so on is so commonplace that it takes an effort of will to see it as metaphorical.

I love the irony in that statement. The notion of the "laws" of nature is a metaphor. The Moon does not consult a legal text to figure out how to orbit the Earth. The term "law" is used to express the reliability of the behavior of the objects involved, it is AS IF they were following an established law. But, they are simply doing what they naturally do, due to their relative masses and the Moon's trajectory. Only the behavior of the physicist is governed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics tell him what he must do to calculate the positions of both the Moon and the rocket to assure that they both show up in the same place and time.

Every action is fixed by prior state. Thoughts, feelings, everything.

Yep. Everything follows upon what went before. Every event is inevitable, including the inevitable thoughts and feelings that we inevitably experience as we inevitably decide for ourselves what we will inevitably do.

Deterministic causal inevitability changes nothing. The notion that it changes how we should view what is going on is an illusion.

Determinism negates the ability to do and choose otherwise.

Apparently that too is an illusion! We can easily demonstrate our ability to order whatever we want from the restaurant menu. The fact that I would inevitably order the salad never altered my ability to order anything else. Do you want to see? Pick anything you want from the menu and watch me order it for you. See? My ability to order the other items is not affected by the inevitability of my ordering the salad for myself.

Of course, what you picked for me to order was causally necessary and inevitable from any prior point in time. But that only means that it was inevitable that you and you alone would pick that item.

You asserted choice in the face of a reality that denies all possibility of doing otherwise, which is the essence meaning of choice'

Determinism never eliminates any possibilities. It simply establishes the actualities, one event at a time, each event reliably caused by prior events, and each event reliably causing subsequent events.

Possibilities do not exist outside of the imagination. A possibility is not an actuality. We can, if we have sufficient ability, convert a possibility into an actuality if we choose to do so. But we need never convert a possibility into an actuality in order for it to remain a real possibility.

1 Compatibilism and the no choice principle

"... One of the principles of this logic is, or so it seems, embodied in the following thesis, which I shall refer to as the No Choice Principle:
Suppose that p and that no one has (or ever had) any choice about whether p. And suppose also that the following conditional (if-then) statement is true and that no one has (or ever had) any choice about whether it is true: if p, then q. It follows from these two suppositions that q and that no one has (or ever had) any choice about whether q.

Ah! So that is where you found the "No Choice Principle", in someone's analysis of something Van Inwagen said.

The analysis is incorrect of course, for the reason I gave earlier: A list of the things we do not choose, however long, does not eliminate anything from the list of things which we do choose.

While I did not choose to build the restaurant and I did not choose what items would be on its menu, I did choose to order the salad, even though I could have chosen to order the steak.

It was inevitable, of course, that I would not order the steak. But, ironically, it was also inevitable that I could have.
 
Again, DBT failing to understand "choice", "possibility", and "ability".

Once again Jarhyn failing to understand her own definition of determinism and its implications, where all events proceed without deviation, regulative control or ability to do otherwise (possibilities), consequently; no choice.

choice
[tʃɔɪs] NOUN

1 - an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

The No Choice Principle: ''how could I have a choice about anything that is an inevitably consequence of something I have no choice about? And yet ...the compatibilist must deny the No Choice Principle.” - Van Inwagen
I am not "her". This is the second time and I have already corrected you once AFAIK.

You talked about your husband in the Lounge, so I assumed that you are female. My mistake.

'' I drove half of it to get highway practice (Chicago rush hour was a very cruel initiation, especially learning stick), and one panicked trip to the hospital after my husband suffered a back injury while on the way to visit my parents.'' - Jarhyn - Any cyclist here thread.

If you don't know, use an agnostic term. For the record, I prefer no mention made of sex or gender made at all where it isn't important.

The details I keep reserved for my friends.

It's right there in my "gender" tag. Specifically: no pls.

I defined the word possibility and choice through use in context and explained them carefully.

To be clear, this is about the foundational concept that lies underneath "ability", "possibility", and "choice".

You snipped those definitions so you wouldn't have to look at them.

Here they are again:
I guess this all hangs on "ability".

According to determinism a specific state of affairs (SoA) will only ever produce one outcome - that SoA has no capability (ability) to produce any other outcome. There is no possibility that it "could".
So I've been trying to simplify my language for a while, and I will admit, it is HARD because this is a very hard thing to communicate concisely:

"Could", for me and for most, does not operate in the context of "Actual state of affairs".

First we take all the "regular laws" of the universe and keep them.

Then, we take all the state of the universe, copy that, and assume something of it. I will call this "image" of the state of affairs StateB.

So, in a lot more words than normal "could" is "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

Let's assume that this is not the case for the sake of discussion, that SoA is not StateB.

It is a TRUE statement that "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

It will always a true statement. It will have always have been a true statement. This is because the statement does not say anything about the actuality of the SoA being StateB, it only discusses IF it were. It will always have been true that he "could".

What will not be true is that SoA is StateB, and thus while he could, he will not.

Again can we please get to the point where you stop trying to straw-man our positions by substituting different definitions of "could"/"ability"/"possibility" and conflating them with "will"

I'm not substituting anything. I'm pointing out that the definition of determinism you gave doesn't allow alternate actions or alternate possibilities.

If 'possibilities' means that something else could have happened in any given circumstance, there are no 'possibilities' within a determined system because all events are entailed in time t and all the prior states of the system.

That should not be hard to grasp.
 
It has the appearance of choosing.

Can you describe real "choosing".

A real choice means that an alternate action is possible. Determinism does not allow the ability to choose otherwise.

How did you arrive at your belief that "a real choice" requires conditions that, in your view, have never existed and never can?

You tell me, you are the one insisting on using the term real choice tm
 
Again, DBT failing to understand "choice", "possibility", and "ability".

Once again Jarhyn failing to understand her own definition of determinism and its implications, where all events proceed without deviation, regulative control or ability to do otherwise (possibilities), consequently; no choice.

choice
[tʃɔɪs] NOUN

1 - an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

The No Choice Principle: ''how could I have a choice about anything that is an inevitably consequence of something I have no choice about? And yet ...the compatibilist must deny the No Choice Principle.” - Van Inwagen
I am not "her". This is the second time and I have already corrected you once AFAIK.

You talked about your husband in the Lounge, so I assumed that you are female. My mistake.

'' I drove half of it to get highway practice (Chicago rush hour was a very cruel initiation, especially learning stick), and one panicked trip to the hospital after my husband suffered a back injury while on the way to visit my parents.'' - Jarhyn - Any cyclist here thread.

If you don't know, use an agnostic term. For the record, I prefer no mention made of sex or gender made at all where it isn't important.

The details I keep reserved for my friends.

It's right there in my "gender" tag. Specifically: no pls.

I defined the word possibility and choice through use in context and explained them carefully.

To be clear, this is about the foundational concept that lies underneath "ability", "possibility", and "choice".

You snipped those definitions so you wouldn't have to look at them.

Here they are again:
I guess this all hangs on "ability".

According to determinism a specific state of affairs (SoA) will only ever produce one outcome - that SoA has no capability (ability) to produce any other outcome. There is no possibility that it "could".
So I've been trying to simplify my language for a while, and I will admit, it is HARD because this is a very hard thing to communicate concisely:

"Could", for me and for most, does not operate in the context of "Actual state of affairs".

First we take all the "regular laws" of the universe and keep them.

Then, we take all the state of the universe, copy that, and assume something of it. I will call this "image" of the state of affairs StateB.

So, in a lot more words than normal "could" is "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

Let's assume that this is not the case for the sake of discussion, that SoA is not StateB.

It is a TRUE statement that "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

It will always a true statement. It will have always have been a true statement. This is because the statement does not say anything about the actuality of the SoA being StateB, it only discusses IF it were. It will always have been true that he "could".

What will not be true is that SoA is StateB, and thus while he could, he will not.

Again can we please get to the point where you stop trying to straw-man our positions by substituting different definitions of "could"/"ability"/"possibility" and conflating them with "will"

I'm not substituting anything. I'm pointing out that the definition of determinism you gave doesn't allow alternate actions or alternate possibilities.

If 'possibilities' means that something else could have happened in any given circumstance, there are no 'possibilities' within a determined system because all events are entailed in time t and all the prior states of the system.

That should not be hard to grasp.
Yes you are substituting something here. We are all trying very carefully to show you what, and I guarantee you we all see exactly what it is you are missing in this conversation.

I have bolded that part which exemplifies what you misunderstand.

Again read my own bolded lines.

In this moment, and for several moments after I will have written this it will be the case that IF my cat shits, I will scoop the box.

My cat will not shit in those moments but IF she does, I will scoop it.

It will always have been true that in those moments IF she had shat in the box I would scoop it.

She won't, but this will be an immortal fact of the crystalline past.
 
Your argument is based upon the notion that, if the choice was inevitable since the big bang, then it is AS IF choosing never really happened, and it is AS IF we had no choice, and it is AS IF the choice was already made by someone or something else . The problem is that all three of these figurative statements are literally false. Choosing does happen.

There is no choice to be inevitable. Determinism entails all actions. All actions are inevitable. Determined actions are not chosen. They are entailed - as defined - by prior states of the system.

Let's consider the other events of that evening. We walked into the restaurant. We considered the menu of possibilities. We chose the salad. We ordered the salad.

Given causal necessity:
It was inevitable that we would walk into the restaurant.
It was inevitable that we would consider the menu of possibilities.
It was inevitable that we would choose the salad.
It was inevitable that we would order the salad.

Was walking into the restaurant an illusion? No.
Was considering the menu of possibilities an illusion? No.
Was choosing the salad an illusion? No.
Was ordering the salad in illusion? No.


I didn't say anything about the actions being an illusion. Just that the actions are performed as determined without deviation.

That is entailed in your own definition: no deviation is the point.

You may disagree, but my conclusion is that the only illusion to be found in this scenario is the illusion that there is some kind of illusion. And that "illusion of an illusion" was caused by taking figurative statements literally.

The illusion is the perception or belief that you could have chosen or done otherwise.

Some experiments;
''Over and over, the participants made up just-so stories to account for their nonchoices. Instead of pondering their picks first and then acting on them, the study subjects appeared to act first and think later. Their improbable justifications indicate that we can use hindsight to determine our own motives—just as we might speculate about what drives someone else's behavior after the fact. In their now classic paper, Hall and Johansson dubbed this new illusion “choice blindness.”

''Choice blindness' reveals that not only are our choices often more constrained than we think, but our sense of agency in decision making can be a farce in which we are the first to deceive ourselves.''


Not only 'more constrained than we think,' but if determinism is true, absolutely constrained by the system as it evolves without deviation.

If the World is under the sway of determinism, everything happens as determined, ... The process is not figurative.

Ah! You've found the SEP article on Causal Determinism by Carl Hoefer. Hoefer notes the figurative language himself in section “2.4 Laws of Nature”:

“In the physical sciences, the assumption that there are fundamental, exceptionless laws of nature, and that they have some strong sort of modal force, usually goes unquestioned. Indeed, talk of laws “governing” and so on is so commonplace that it takes an effort of will to see it as metaphorical.

I love the irony in that statement. The notion of the "laws" of nature is a metaphor. The Moon does not consult a legal text to figure out how to orbit the Earth. The term "law" is used to express the reliability of the behavior of the objects involved, it is AS IF they were following an established law. But, they are simply doing what they naturally do, due to their relative masses and the Moon's trajectory. Only the behavior of the physicist is governed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics tell him what he must do to calculate the positions of both the Moon and the rocket to assure that they both show up in the same place and time.

'Natural law' just refers to the properties of matter energy and its interactions, stars, planets, life, people, evolve and interact deterministically, as you define it. Complexity doesn't allow anything or anyone the freedom to will or do otherwise. As we are arguing over compatibility, free will in relation to determinism, that is a problem for the notion of free will




Every action is fixed by prior state. Thoughts, feelings, everything.

Yep. Everything follows upon what went before. Every event is inevitable, including the inevitable thoughts and feelings that we inevitably experience as we inevitably decide for ourselves what we will inevitably do.

Deterministic causal inevitability changes nothing. The notion that it changes how we should view what is going on is an illusion.

Causal inevitability changes everything. It eliminates freedom of will and freedom of choice because your will and its related action is causally inevitable rather than freely willed or chosen. What happens must necessarily happen.

Ah! So that is where you found the "No Choice Principle", in someone's analysis of something Van Inwagen said.

The analysis is incorrect of course, for the reason I gave earlier: A list of the things we do not choose, however long, does not eliminate anything from the list of things which we do choose.

While I did not choose to build the restaurant and I did not choose what items would be on its menu, I did choose to order the salad, even though I could have chosen to order the steak.

It was inevitable, of course, that I would not order the steak. But, ironically, it was also inevitable that I could have.

Found? No, it's not the first time I have referred to or quoted Van Inwagen.

The analysis is correct because, unlike compatibilists, it does not ignore entailment/causal necessitation....which, by its nature and definition, must necessarily eliminate any possibility of alternate actions and choices, consequently Van Inwagen is correct in calling it the no choice principle.

There is no ''could have'' in determinism, only what is; each state of the system entailed by its prior state, no deviation, no choice - the no choice principle is therefore correct.
 
Again, DBT failing to understand "choice", "possibility", and "ability".

Once again Jarhyn failing to understand her own definition of determinism and its implications, where all events proceed without deviation, regulative control or ability to do otherwise (possibilities), consequently; no choice.

choice
[tʃɔɪs] NOUN

1 - an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.

The No Choice Principle: ''how could I have a choice about anything that is an inevitably consequence of something I have no choice about? And yet ...the compatibilist must deny the No Choice Principle.” - Van Inwagen
I am not "her". This is the second time and I have already corrected you once AFAIK.

You talked about your husband in the Lounge, so I assumed that you are female. My mistake.

'' I drove half of it to get highway practice (Chicago rush hour was a very cruel initiation, especially learning stick), and one panicked trip to the hospital after my husband suffered a back injury while on the way to visit my parents.'' - Jarhyn - Any cyclist here thread.

If you don't know, use an agnostic term. For the record, I prefer no mention made of sex or gender made at all where it isn't important.

The details I keep reserved for my friends.

It's right there in my "gender" tag. Specifically: no pls.

I defined the word possibility and choice through use in context and explained them carefully.

To be clear, this is about the foundational concept that lies underneath "ability", "possibility", and "choice".

You snipped those definitions so you wouldn't have to look at them.

Here they are again:
I guess this all hangs on "ability".

According to determinism a specific state of affairs (SoA) will only ever produce one outcome - that SoA has no capability (ability) to produce any other outcome. There is no possibility that it "could".
So I've been trying to simplify my language for a while, and I will admit, it is HARD because this is a very hard thing to communicate concisely:

"Could", for me and for most, does not operate in the context of "Actual state of affairs".

First we take all the "regular laws" of the universe and keep them.

Then, we take all the state of the universe, copy that, and assume something of it. I will call this "image" of the state of affairs StateB.

So, in a lot more words than normal "could" is "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

Let's assume that this is not the case for the sake of discussion, that SoA is not StateB.

It is a TRUE statement that "in this moment he will IF the SoA is StateB."

It will always a true statement. It will have always have been a true statement. This is because the statement does not say anything about the actuality of the SoA being StateB, it only discusses IF it were. It will always have been true that he "could".

What will not be true is that SoA is StateB, and thus while he could, he will not.

Again can we please get to the point where you stop trying to straw-man our positions by substituting different definitions of "could"/"ability"/"possibility" and conflating them with "will"

I'm not substituting anything. I'm pointing out that the definition of determinism you gave doesn't allow alternate actions or alternate possibilities.

If 'possibilities' means that something else could have happened in any given circumstance, there are no 'possibilities' within a determined system because all events are entailed in time t and all the prior states of the system.

That should not be hard to grasp.
Yes you are substituting something here. We are all trying very carefully to show you what, and I guarantee you we all see exactly what it is you are missing in this conversation.

I have bolded that part which exemplifies what you misunderstand.

Again read my own bolded lines.

In this moment, and for several moments after I will have written this it will be the case that IF my cat shits, I will scoop the box.

My cat will not shit in those moments but IF she does, I will scoop it.

It will always have been true that in those moments IF she had shat in the box I would scoop it.

She won't, but this will be an immortal fact of the crystalline past.

What I said is correct. It's correct because it relates to the terms and conditions of a deterministic system, as given.

What you offered was a fine example of sophistry, a rationale that does not relate to your own definition of determinism, which makes it a poor rationale.

What you say just shows that you still have not grasped the nature or implications of determinism as you yourself have defined it.

Despite incompatibilism having been explained and supported over and over, I think that you are still confused, mistaking compatibilism with Libertarian free will.

''Some aspiring compatibilists maintain that only humans are judged morally because only they could have acted differently. Those who try this argument must realize that they are not compatibilists at all; they are libertarians. The acceptance of determinism is a defining element of compatibilism. It forbids us to say that evil-doers could have done good if only they wanted to. Well yes, if they wanted to, but they were determined to not want to.

Hence, the compatibilist must find a defense for moral judgment that is applicable only to humans and that is safely nonlibertarian. He must look for a psychological feature that is presumably uniquely human and that is involved in the causal chain leading to action. The general version of this feature is self-consciousness and the specific version is intentionality. In other words, a person is judged to have acted freely and (ir)responsibly if he was aware of his desire to do X, foresaw the consequences (e.g., how moralists would judge him if he did X), and endorsed the desire (thereby forming an intention). Notice that a true compatibilist, who has gone on record saying that determinism is a fact of nature, must believe that the events of experiencing a desire, foreseeing the consequences of action, and forming an intention to act on the desire, are all determined. The causal chain leading a human to lift a finger is longer than the chain leading a squirrel to lift an acorn, but it is no less deterministic (he who says that it is less deterministic is not a compatibilist but a closet libertarian).''
 
There is no ''could have'' in determinism
Let's look at a smaller system, since you seem to be lost in large deterministic systems.

Let's look at F(x)=5x

There is one input and one output. It's a deterministic function.

Now, let's fully determine an answer: let x=5.

This is "the big bang" of F(5).

In it's singular moment F(x)=25.

It is no less true that F(6)=30.

Our universe is F(SoA).

F(SoA) can in fact contain partial calculation on F(StateB) where StateB is (SoA U (thing)). The only thing it cannot contain is a complete calculation, due to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.

What we can observe, however, is that some things will be true of F(StateB) even from the perspective of F(SoA) being the only operation ever actually done in completeness.
 
There is no choice to be inevitable.

Correct. There is no choosing on my part regarding it being inevitable that I would have to make a choice. It was inevitable that I would face the restaurant menu, and it was inevitable that I would consider my options, and inevitable that, for my own inevitable reasons, I would inevitably choose to order the salad rather than the steak.

All events are always causally necessary/inevitable. My point is simply that this doesn't actually change anything. It is still me, choosing from the menu of alternate possibilities what I will order for dinner. And it is still me that the waiter will expect to pay the bill.

Nothing has changed.

The proper way to look at universal causal necessity/inevitability is as a background constant. It always appears on both sides of every equation, and can be subtracted from both sides without affecting the result. And the intelligent brain simply acknowledges it, and then ignores it. The notion has no practical implications for any human scenarios.

The illusion is the perception or belief that you could have chosen or done otherwise.

The notion of "could have done otherwise" is part of the rational causal mechanism that causally determines what we think and do. It is not an illusion, but rather an essential token in the machinery of thought.

When we do not know what we will choose, we imagine what we can choose, and estimate the likely result of each of those choices. Then we select the choice that we expect will produce the best results, in terms of our goals and our reasons.

If you eliminate the notions of "can" and "possibilities", you break the machinery. And that's not a good idea, because the ability to choose what we will do, from a number of different options, has evolved to enable our species to adapt to a variety of challenges we find in our environment. It has enhanced our ability to survive. So, don't fork with it.
 
You tell me, you are the one insisting on using the term real choice tm

I'm really not insisting on anything (call it what you like - 'non-illusory' choice?).

In any event, you said:

A real choice means that an alternate action is possible. Determinism does not allow the ability to choose otherwise.
You presumably understood the term 'real choice' when you wrote this, so could you please try to answer my question?

Here it is again:

How did you arrive at your belief that "a real (non-illusory) choice" requires conditions that, in your view, have never existed and never can?
 
Essentially, the compatibilist argues that physics is a system of rules that can be described as a operation on an arbitrary state, and which can be simplified greatly, statistically, to accomplish this of particular forms of information.

We say "there is a function AND form to the universe and these can be divorced to understand the function on a different form."

It is just also very convenient at least for us that we can simplify the function heavily to accelerate calculation at the expense of having knowable microstate-level resolution information about the different form's resolution.

The reason we do this is so that we can act upon the form such that identifiable operations whose results we don't like or already know we won't like, don't happen, and to act upon the form such that identifiable operations whose results we want to come of the future state do, in fact, happen.

This is all observably sensible given the fact that every piece of technology ever engineered was engineered by such a process, including the phone I'm typing on, an operation such that the future state will contain DBT not really reading this post and just kind of glazing over as they repeat this canard that we can't calculate on "if".
 
There is no ''could have'' in determinism
Let's look at a smaller system, since you seem to be lost in large deterministic systems.

I am not the one who is lost.

This is not hard to grasp: the given definitions of determinism set the terms and conditions.

As you yourself stipulated, all events proceed without deviation, thus there can be no deviation. Each and every event is fixed by the prior state of the system, which is not subject to will, wish, regulation or choice in the form of alternate actions.

Based on your accepted definition, everything that happens within a determined system is entailed, fixed by prior states of the system, therefore not freely willed or chosen.

Events evolve as they must.

No exceptions.

You are trying to slide around your own definition of determinism. There is no way around it, what is entailed is not freely chosen.
 
You tell me, you are the one insisting on using the term real choice tm

I'm really not insisting on anything (call it what you like - 'non-illusory' choice?).

In any event, you said:

A real choice means that an alternate action is possible. Determinism does not allow the ability to choose otherwise.
You presumably understood the term 'real choice' when you wrote this, so could you please try to answer my question?

Here it is again:

How did you arrive at your belief that "a real (non-illusory) choice" requires conditions that, in your view, have never existed and never can?

Isn't it clear that I was pointing out that within a determined system, there can be no choice, that 'choice' implies the ability to take any of a number of options as presented - but given determinism, not necessarily realizable, because determinism eliminates the possibility of alternate actions.

You then desperately seized onto my wording and tried to make more of it than was meant with your real choicetmobjection.
 
There is no choice to be inevitable.

Correct. There is no choosing on my part regarding it being inevitable that I would have to make a choice. It was inevitable that I would face the restaurant menu, and it was inevitable that I would consider my options, and inevitable that, for my own inevitable reasons, I would inevitably choose to order the salad rather than the steak.

All events are always causally necessary/inevitable. My point is simply that this doesn't actually change anything. It is still me, choosing from the menu of alternate possibilities what I will order for dinner. And it is still me that the waiter will expect to pay the bill.

Nothing has changed.

The proper way to look at universal causal necessity/inevitability is as a background constant. It always appears on both sides of every equation, and can be subtracted from both sides without affecting the result. And the intelligent brain simply acknowledges it, and then ignores it. The notion has no practical implications for any human scenarios.

The proper way to look at universal causation is precisely as defined, that all events are fixed at time t and how things go ever after, consequently, nothing is chosen.

That, as described in your definition, all events must necessarily proceed as determined, neither chosen or subject to modification, wish, will or regulation.


1. No one has power over the facts of the past and the laws of nature.
2. No one has power over the fact that the facts of the past and the laws of nature entail every fact of the future (i.e., determinism is true).
3. Therefore, no one has power over the facts of the future.


The illusion is the perception or belief that you could have chosen or done otherwise.

The notion of "could have done otherwise" is part of the rational causal mechanism that causally determines what we think and do. It is not an illusion, but rather an essential token in the machinery of thought.

There is no think or do 'otherwise' within a deterministic system. Not by your definition, not by any other definition of the word.

What Does Deterministic System Mean?
''A deterministic system is a system in which a given initial state or condition will always produce the same results. There is no randomness or variation in the ways that inputs get delivered as outputs.''


When we do not know what we will choose, we imagine what we can choose, and estimate the likely result of each of those choices. Then we select the choice that we expect will produce the best results, in terms of our goals and our reasons.

If you eliminate the notions of "can" and "possibilities", you break the machinery. And that's not a good idea, because the ability to choose what we will do, from a number of different options, has evolved to enable our species to adapt to a variety of challenges we find in our environment. It has enhanced our ability to survive. So, don't fork with it.

What we imagine we can choose is just as fixed as what we are entailed to do. You are trying to impose an exemption in the form of imagination.

Imagination is a physical brain activity, signals passed between cells and networks, thereby subject to the same constraint as every other event within the system.

What you imagine doing, you must necessarily imagine doing, as the physical system that is your brain, an aspect of the world at large and no way separate from it, processes information and represents thought in conscious form as imagination.

You may imagine flying through the air like a bird, you may dream that you are flying through the air like a bird, but that is not the same as ability to do. The brain has the capacity to think and imagine, but not do otherwise.
 
which is not subject to will, wish, regulation or choice in the form of alternate actions.
And then you beg the question again. You and FDI really have your heads lodged QUITE firmly, don't you?

Again,
Let's look at F(x)=5x

There is one input and one output. It's a deterministic function.

Now, let's fully determine an answer: let x=5.

This is "the big bang" of F(5).

In it's singular moment F(x)=25.

It is no less true that F(6)=30.

Our universe is F(SoA).

F(SoA) can in fact contain partial calculation on F(StateB) where StateB is (SoA U (thing)). The only thing it cannot contain is a complete calculation, due to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.

What we can observe, however, is that some things will be true of F(StateB) even from the perspective of F(SoA) being the only operation ever actually done in completeness.
Of course, the fact is, you have nothing you can actually say to this. It's why you keep snipping this portion and ignoring it, not speaking to it's logic at all.
 
How did you arrive at your belief that "a real (non-illusory) choice" requires conditions that, in your view, have never existed and never can?

Isn't it clear that I was pointing out that within a determined system, there can be no choice,

Of course.

In order to declare that choice is not possible in a deterministic universe, you must have in your mind a working definition of choice. It will be a definition which stipulates the conditions under which a choice can be made (conditions which in your view don't, and can never, exist).

The problem here is that your definition doesn't reflect how the majority of competent English speakers use the word. So I'm asking you where you got your definition and, what is your justification for insisting that the majority of English speakers are mistaken?
 
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