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Conundrum: Infinite past & Clock

Could there be anything else to it?
EB
Dunno. I don't have your reaction to the situation posed in the OP. I don't see any conundrum or anything counterintuitive. My brain is happy with a clock that's been running forever in an infinite universe. It's happy with the idea that the clock's current state is its current state, which is 1 second ahead of where it was a second ago, 1 second behind where it will be a second from now, and so on for similar phrases.

You're not so comfortable, so I suggest, this being the metaphysics forum, you try to formulate some metaphysical principles for why the scenario doesn't ring right to you. I've seen people spin this one on the PSR. There's also just an issue with contingency, which is what you might be getting at. We might want to say that the state of the clock now is contingent on the state a second ago, and since we can continue that forever, we realise that we can't find a brute fact on which to ground the state of the clock at any particular time.
 
How exactly does a mind become happy with real completed infinities?

What exactly would bother such a mind?
 
How exactly does a mind become happy with real completed infinities?
I'm wondering if it involves studying maths.

Completed real infinities have nothing to do with mathematics.

It is not a mathematical concept.

Mathematicians have no knowledge of such a thing.
They have plenty of experience with talking in abstract about infinite sets, in ways that would be considered grossly cavalier a few hundred years ago. I'm going to suggest that feeds their metaphysical intuitions, and I'll cite the maths educated folk in this thread as evidence.
 
I'm thinking it makes some not understand the difference between reality and invented concepts that have nothing to do with reality.
 
If the past is finite, we can assume a starting point, and a particular state at this point, which would be enough to cause all the subsequent states, including the current state of the universe as we see it. If there's no starting point, or if the starting point is infinitely far away in the past, why should we be in the specific state we are in now, and not in any of the other possible states, of which, as it happens, there is at least a very, very, very large number. What would be the rationale for the universe being in the particular state it is in now?
EB

That is very simple to answer: because it is! How could be different than it is?

Oh, excellent. Haven't thought about that. I should try it. Thanks.

Let's start simple: I am what I am. How could be different than it is?

Ach, es funktioniert nicht.

Ich bin dumm, ich bin dumm! :(
EB
 
Could there be anything else to it?
EB
Dunno. I don't have your reaction to the situation posed in the OP. I don't see any conundrum or anything counterintuitive. My brain is happy with a clock that's been running forever in an infinite universe. It's happy with the idea that the clock's current state is its current state, which is 1 second ahead of where it was a second ago, 1 second behind where it will be a second from now, and so on for similar phrases.

You're not so comfortable, so I suggest, this being the metaphysics forum, you try to formulate some metaphysical principles for why the scenario doesn't ring right to you. I've seen people spin this one on the PSR. There's also just an issue with contingency, which is what you might be getting at. We might want to say that the state of the clock now is contingent on the state a second ago, and since we can continue that forever, we realise that we can't find a brute fact on which to ground the state of the clock at any particular time.

Yes, seems like another way to put it.

Hopefully, everybody someone should be able to see the inadequacy of the answers given so far.
EB
 
Here, the past itself may not be an actual infinity since it still only exists one moment at a time, at least in our way of talking about it, but the number of past moments certainly is.
Our way of talking about it is not necessarily correct. It may not only exist one moment at a time -- the past could still be with us. Are you familiar with the "Growing Block" theory of time? In that theory, time is actually a spatial dimension. Our familiar 3-D world is a surface moving along the 4th dimension. The 4-D world has a boundary, and new 4-D stuff is continually added to it at the boundary. What would look from the outside like a growing 4-D object looks from within the surface like a lot of 3-D objects moving around in 3-D.

Or another way to look at is, rather than the whole 4-D world ending at the boundary surface, there's a 4-D object embedded in 4-D space, with a phase change happening at its surface. The past is a solid object; the future is a liquid; and the solid block is growing because the liquid at its surface is freezing. What we perceive as 3-D objects moving around in 3-D, a 4-D outside observer would perceive to be the end-points of 4-D defects in the crystal structure of the object, propagating in various directions along its growing 3-D surface, as new material freezes onto the object.

The point being, if time works that way and there has been an infinity of past moments, then the universe currently contains an actual infinity of past states, a complete permanent record of the past, frozen solid, extending out from here along the 4th dimension of space.
 
Assuming the Principle of Sufficient Reason you're talking about stipulates that everything has a reason or a cause, I'm open to the idea that it's wrong. I recently suggested reality (and time itself with it) may well have started without anything having caused it to happen, somewhat like Last Thursdayism.
...
I would admit to not having thought about that and I guess I just implicitly assumed that most people accepted the validity of the PSR, expecting them to find a way to reconcile the possibility of an infinite past with the PSR.

Could there be anything else to it?
EB
To talk of reconciling the possibility of an infinite past with the PSR appears to take for granted that if we can't do that then the PSR favors a finite past. But let's turn it around. How can we reconcile the PSR with a finite past? If the universe began, then it began in some state. Well, why that state and not some other? What's the Sufficient Reason for that?
 
If the past is finite, we can assume a starting point, and a particular state at this point, which would be enough to cause all the subsequent states, including the current state of the universe as we see it. If there's no starting point, or if the starting point is infinitely far away in the past, why should we be in the specific state we are in now, and not in any of the other possible states, of which, as it happens, there is at least a very, very, very large number. What would be the rationale for the universe being in the particular state it is in now?
EB

That is very simple to answer: because it is! How could be different than it is?

Oh, excellent. Haven't thought about that. I should try it. Thanks.

Let's start simple: I am what I am. How could be different than it is?

Ach, es funktioniert nicht.

Ich bin dumm, ich bin dumm! :(
EB
Ever occurred to you that the question may be wrong?
”How could it be different” usnt a very useful question here.
To answer that question you need a lot of knowledge about the system but we have none: anything that works like a clock...
 
Assuming the Principle of Sufficient Reason you're talking about stipulates that everything has a reason or a cause, I'm open to the idea that it's wrong. I recently suggested reality (and time itself with it) may well have started without anything having caused it to happen, somewhat like Last Thursdayism.
...
I would admit to not having thought about that and I guess I just implicitly assumed that most people accepted the validity of the PSR, expecting them to find a way to reconcile the possibility of an infinite past with the PSR.

Could there be anything else to it?
EB
To talk of reconciling the possibility of an infinite past with the PSR appears to take for granted that if we can't do that then the PSR favors a finite past.

I wasn't trying to imply that. We've been talking a lot about an infinite past lately, so I was focusing on that.

But let's turn it around. How can we reconcile the PSR with a finite past? If the universe began, then it began in some state. Well, why that state and not some other? What's the Sufficient Reason for that?

It seems I already articulated my perspective here:
Assuming the Principle of Sufficient Reason you're talking about stipulates that everything has a reason or a cause, I'm open to the idea that it's wrong. I recently suggested reality (and time itself with it) may well have started without anything having caused it to happen, somewhat like Last Thursdayism.

More explicitly, I think that the PSR can only be reasonably compelling as to what is going on at one point in time as long as we assume there was something going on before that point. If we don't assume anything, or assume nothingness, I think our intuition around the PSR just breaks down.

So, you'd have to ask other people why they think, if they do, that the PSR should apply even in the case there was nothing before the beginning of our universe. However, I suspect that most people don't equate finite past with nothingness before the beginning of (our) time. Some will think in terms of some kind of (out-of-time) God as a good explanation for the creation of our universe. Others will just leave it at that, a question mark. And I'm sure we could come up with other imaginative solutions.
EB
 
Oh, excellent. Haven't thought about that. I should try it. Thanks.

Let's start simple: I am what I am. How could be different than it is?

Ach, es funktioniert nicht.

Ich bin dumm, ich bin dumm! :(
EB
Ever occurred to you that the question may be wrong?
”How could it be different” usnt a very useful question here.
To answer that question you need a lot of knowledge about the system but we have none: anything that works like a clock...

I'm not the one who asked that question. You are:
That is very simple to answer: because it is! How could be different than it is?

Instead, I asked why the universe is what it is: "What would be the rationale for the universe being in the particular state it is in now?"

So, that's fine. No need to be so worked up. I take it your "very simple" rationale is "because it is!".

Excellent! That's a perfectly respectable position to have, and sort of self-fulfilling, even self-justifying. And it also apply to my asking idiotic questions.

As if that could calm you down. You'll be what you'll be and that's it.

I'm looking forward to hearing from what you'll be.
EB
 
Here, the past itself may not be an actual infinity since it still only exists one moment at a time, at least in our way of talking about it, but the number of past moments certainly is.
Our way of talking about it is not necessarily correct. It may not only exist one moment at a time -- the past could still be with us. Are you familiar with the "Growing Block" theory of time? In that theory, time is actually a spatial dimension. Our familiar 3-D world is a surface moving along the 4th dimension. The 4-D world has a boundary, and new 4-D stuff is continually added to it at the boundary. What would look from the outside like a growing 4-D object looks from within the surface like a lot of 3-D objects moving around in 3-D.

I'm not familiar with it but I have definitely heard of it.

I would say that you'd need to decide how much time is now a spatial dimension. Given what you're saying, I take it that time is somewhat like space in that the whole of the past would keep existing. Yet, it wouldn't be entirely like space in that things could still "grow", "move", "be added", which presumably would require something like ordinary time. So, I would question this notion that time would be like space.

Rather, we could take the Growing Block theory as saying that time is just like we ordinarily think of it but that our 3D-world as it has existed in the past is preserved, as you described, along a 4th spatial dimension. So, the 3D-surface of our world would indeed be "growing", which now is OK since we've kept time just as what we ordinarily think of it. That doesn't necessarily make any difference but it seems a simpler way to look at it. And the past could still be either finite or infinite.

Alternatively, you don't need to say that, in this theory, "time is actually a spatial dimension". It would still be a time dimension, but then the past wouldn't "actually" exist for us in the present. It would just still exist in the past. But, well, that's wouldn't sound so different from our ordinary view!

Or another way to look at is, rather than the whole 4-D world ending at the boundary surface, there's a 4-D object embedded in 4-D space, with a phase change happening at its surface. The past is a solid object; the future is a liquid; and the solid block is growing because the liquid at its surface is freezing. What we perceive as 3-D objects moving around in 3-D, a 4-D outside observer would perceive to be the end-points of 4-D defects in the crystal structure of the object, propagating in various directions along its growing 3-D surface, as new material freezes onto the object.

Right, same remark, but this one is entirely new to me. Interesting.

And maybe it could explain inflation, including the slowing down of it. Maybe more than four dimensions would be required. :D

The point being, if time works that way and there has been an infinity of past moments, then the universe currently contains an actual infinity of past states, a complete permanent record of the past, frozen solid, extending out from here along the 4th dimension of space.

It certainly seems to work in the abstract but that's a bit difficult to reconcile with our notion of time. My interpretation of this perspective goes back to our ordinary notion of time. It also keeps this notion that the past is preserved, but along a 4th spatial dimension, not a time one.

Still, I don't have any objection to this idea.

I'm just trying to figure out how consciousness could fit into this picture. :confused:

Unless, our notion ordinary of time is indeed preserved.
EB
 
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