Covid vaccinatin passports

[DrZoidberg]

That’s so pretty. We don’t have roadways without speed limits because humans as a whole can’t manage driving without rules and not kill themselves.

So “personal liberty” as an excuse to threaten the lives of others is really naive and weak.

We are a community, not a bunch of individuals on independent paths that don’t cross one another. Wanna be a hermit crab and live in a trailer down by the river, fine, you don’t need vaccination. You cross pollinate with the public? You already made your choice.

There is no country on Earth where politicians have fully listened to their scientific advisors and done what they've been told regarding Covid-19. They've either low balled the threat or they've exaggerated the threat to be able to make shows of force. The policies chosen are ones that look good in the press and are dramatic, not the ones that makes the best sense from a epidemiological point of view. Even in Denmark where the prime minister has had a uncharacteristically intelligent attitude, she's still put plenty of restrictions in effect which were not recommended by the Danish CDC.

It's all mostly politics regardless if you are a pro- or anti-vaxxer.

In an environment where policy is dictated more on populism than science, (on both sides) I don't want to give politicians tools to force normal people to do anything. I think this is an exceedingly dangerous precedent.

What speed limits has going for it is that it's been in effect for a long time. Political policies get tried and tested over time. Idiotic populism gets whittled away over time until the sensible policies remain. That is a world apart from this Covid-19 vaccine roll out, which is a global one shot deal. If this goes wrong, boy are we fucked.

 

[Keith&Co.]

A ways back, the US government dropped the national speed limit from 70mph to 55mph (112 kangaroos per hippodrome down to 88kph).

Some states refused to comply.
They put up the signs, but they did not actually enforce the new limit.
So the federal government withheld highway funding. Pretty significant amount of money.

No one was sending federal troops to shoot speedsters or sealing the borders beteeen compliant and non-compliant states.

The choice was still left to the individual state to comply with the decision of those placed in the position to make these decisions, or not comply and deal with the consequences.

No one's being forced to vaccinate. But if you don't get with the program, be aware that there are consequences you will have to deal with...
Call me when they're moved to unvaxinated ghettos and wearing a patch of a green circle with bulbous cillia.

 

[Rhea]

I think we're better served by upping our persuasion game. If getting vaccinated obviously is so superior then how the fuck can be fail so badly in communicating it? I think there's a snobbery among the educated middle-class which I think is harming our ability to communicate with those less educated.

On Facebook I've read so many accounts of anti-vaxxers talking about how badly they have reacted from taking vaccines in the past. Clear examples of people confusing causation with correlation. This shit isn't hard to explain. Yet, we've failed their entire lives.

To sum up, persuasion is always better than force. If we can't persuade we should examine why we can't persuade and try harder, rather than going nuclear.

I think this is an important point that we often disregard when we jump to “shunning the plague rats.”
*****POINTS TO SELF AS PART OF THIS******


It is very natural for me to say, “no vaccine, no public activity” because I believe that is a choice they are truly making and it pisses me off that their willful ignorance endangers other.

BUT IT’S ALSO TRUE that we must not give up on pursuasion as the more humane, more civilized option and it should therefore be given, IMHO, huge resources and energy. It is years of conservative pursuasion that got us here, and science has not put in the same effort to counter it. Yet it is extremely human and predictable that large swaths of people need pursuasion as the language of learning. We can’t write them off and then complain about having to live with the curriculum that was available to them.


So I think Zoid has a pretty important point here, and it’s illustrated by our conversation that we skip over the question of “how to pursuade” when it is clearly more important for behavior than “how to sanction” in the ultimate effort of social safety.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That’s so pretty. We don’t have roadways without speed limits because humans as a whole can’t manage driving without rules and not kill themselves.

So “personal liberty” as an excuse to threaten the lives of others is really naive and weak.

We are a community, not a bunch of individuals on independent paths that don’t cross one another. Wanna be a hermit crab and live in a trailer down by the river, fine, you don’t need vaccination. You cross pollinate with the public? You already made your choice.

There is no country on Earth where politicians have fully listened to their scientific advisors and done what they've been told regarding Covid-19. They've either low balled the threat or they've exaggerated the threat to be able to make shows of force. The policies chosen are ones that look good in the press and are dramatic, not the ones that makes the best sense from a epidemiological point of view. Even in Denmark where the prime minister has had a uncharacteristically intelligent attitude, she's still put plenty of restrictions in effect which were not recommended by the Danish CDC.

Not relevant.

It's all mostly politics regardless if you are a pro- or anti-vaxxer.

Still not relevant.

In an environment where policy is dictated more on populism than science, (on both sides) I don't want to give politicians tools to force normal people to do anything. I think this is an exceedingly dangerous precedent.

Starting to become a bit more relevant, except this is about hypotheticals.

What speed limits has going for it is that it's been in effect for a long time. Political policies get tried and tested over time. Idiotic populism gets whittled away over time until the sensible policies remain. That is a world apart from this Covid-19 vaccine roll out, which is a global one shot deal. If this goes wrong, boy are we fucked.

It already went wrong, because a lot more governments (US, Brazil, Russia, India, UK) went the denial route than the safe route.

And none of this addresses the community aspect of vaccination. People seem to be quite happy with other people getting vaccinated leading to their good health, such as polio. Vaccination is about communal protection. We are a community. We sometimes need to do things as a community to ensure its health, instead of acutely focusing on the individual for a communal problem. People should be free to make decisions about their lives, but there are limits, actually a lot of them. And public health is a big one.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think we're better served by upping our persuasion game. If getting vaccinated obviously is so superior then how the fuck can be fail so badly in communicating it? I think there's a snobbery among the educated middle-class which I think is harming our ability to communicate with those less educated.

On Facebook I've read so many accounts of anti-vaxxers talking about how badly they have reacted from taking vaccines in the past. Clear examples of people confusing causation with correlation. This shit isn't hard to explain. Yet, we've failed their entire lives.

To sum up, persuasion is always better than force. If we can't persuade we should examine why we can't persuade and try harder, rather than going nuclear.

I think this is an important point that we often disregard when we jump to “shunning the plague rats.”
*****POINTS TO SELF AS PART OF THIS******


It is very natural for me to say, “no vaccine, no public activity” because I believe that is a choice they are truly making and it pisses me off that their willful ignorance endangers other.

BUT IT’S ALSO TRUE that we must not give up on pursuasion as the more humane, more civilized option and it should therefore be given, IMHO, huge resources and energy. It is years of conservative pursuasion that got us here, and science has not put in the same effort to counter it. Yet it is extremely human and predictable that large swaths of people need pursuasion as the language of learning. We can’t write them off and then complain about having to live with the curriculum that was available to them.


So I think Zoid has a pretty important point here, and it’s illustrated by our conversation that we skip over the question of “how to pursuade” when it is clearly more important for behavior than “how to sanction” in the ultimate effort of social safety.

The problem of persuasion is that in the absence of suffering, people stop thinking there needs to be something to do. When added to the "I'm a special case" mindset (as seen in the holidays in the US in 2020), there is actually little to do that can persuade people. They either think, there is no problem or everyone else can do it, I don't need to. There are people that don't want the Covid-19 vaccine and the pandemic on-going!

It is hard to teach empathy, immunology, or civics. A quarter of a million Americans died because of the Holidays. And if America had a choice to do it all over again, no doubt it would.

I don't think the CDC understood at the time, just how well the anti-vax movement would push forward. And then when politics was inserted by the likes of Trump, it added another level of obfuscation.

I think, in other words, in America, and globally, we are at the whim of statistical chance regarding a particular mutation not happening and blowing this up into a 1918 pandemic.

 

[ronburgundy]

Something approaching 100% vaccination is neccessary for the general public to protect itself. Unvaccinated people keep the virus spreading and mutating, causing it to eventually mutate outside of the vaccines effectiveness, putting everyone back at square one. Societies have the collective right to protect themselves from such dangers. It is central to the "social contract" that allows civilized society to exist. Thus, society absolutely has the right to require vaccinations of those who are not medically limited from doing so, just as they have the right to quarantine a person that is infected, prevent drunk driving, prevent dumping of toxins into the air or water even when done on one's own property, etc..

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Exactly. I have no problem with plague rats being shunned.

This is the shit I'm talking about. We're far too good at dehumanising fellow humans we deem as the out-group. It happens quickly and can have disastrous consequences.

You just invented it and now you're disparaging people who call you on it. Convenient!

 

[TSwizzle]

I think we're better served by upping our persuasion game.

That will only take you so far. There is a section of hardline anti vaxers that are just irrational cranks. You can't reason with them but they are quite low in numbers. Most people will eventually do the right thing and get vaccinated. Even the people with concerns will come round eventually. The cranks ? Forget it.

If getting vaccinated obviously is so superior then how the fuck can be fail so badly in communicating it? I think there's a snobbery among the educated middle-class which I think is harming our ability to communicate with those less educated.

It's more than snobbery and more wide spread that the chattering classes. It's downright authoritarian types that latch on to this passport idea. Look how quickly they descend into the dehumanizing "plague rats" tropes. *yawn*

On Facebook I've read so many accounts of anti-vaxxers talking about how badly they have reacted from taking vaccines in the past. Clear examples of people confusing causation with correlation. This shit isn't hard to explain. Yet, we've failed their entire lives.

FaceBook is not the real world. It's full of mischief making trolls.

To sum up, persuasion is always better than force. If we can't persuade we should examine why we can't persuade and try harder, rather than going nuclear.

So far I think it's working. The uptake in vaccinations is pretty good. A vaccination center in Pasadena CA had to be closed because so many ineligible people showed up to get vaccinated. So it seems plenty people are anxious to get vaccinated, demand is outstripping supply at the moment I think.

 

[jab]

I'm against forcing a medical procedure on anybody, no matter how much they may need it.

That's great. I'm against people having to suffer because of idiots. We have killed Polio among a bunch of other diseases because the greater good mattered more than someone's stupid gut and what a fucking idiot MTV VJ says. Shit got too good and people are overthinking an incredibly easy decision to make.

Less disease, suffering, and death?

YES! 1,000 FUCKING YES'S!

I think what separates us is that I think that personal rights are inviolable. Historically, whenever we've allowed the government to ignore personal rights it's ended badly. It's a slippery slope. We have a history of the scientific community being dead sure about something which ended up not being correct. I'm thinking about when we thought that poverty was a result of psychological flaws and we thought it was a stellar idea to make large numbers of these impoverished women sterile. Or the Tuskegee study. It's not like these examples are hypothetical. They all stem from the idea that some people, and in extension, some people's beliefs, can be ignored. This slippery slope is real.

I think it changes us. Once we start overruling those we think are stupid, and do things to them against their wishes, "for their own good" we will stop valuing human life as sacred.

I think we're better served by upping our persuasion game. If getting vaccinated obviously is so superior then how the fuck can be fail so badly in communicating it? I think there's a snobbery among the educated middle-class which I think is harming our ability to communicate with those less educated.

On Facebook I've read so many accounts of anti-vaxxers talking about how badly they have reacted from taking vaccines in the past. Clear examples of people confusing causation with correlation. This shit isn't hard to explain. Yet, we've failed their entire lives.

To sum up, persuasion is always better than force. If we can't persuade we should examine why we can't persuade and try harder, rather than going nuclear.

This measure is not for the good of the unvaccinated.
did you have trouble with the masking-wearing laws?

 

[jab]

Israel's strategy is a half measure. Half measures is why the pandemic is still fucking going. The more convoluted a process is (who is allowed to go where, what each passport means, how many people in a public place etc), the more likely things will fall through the cracks and we are right back where we start. And Harry Bosch hit the nail on the head. You forfeit your personal rights when you put someone else at risk. That's why you don't have the personal right to drink a bottle of rum and then go out for a drive.

agreed

 

[TomC]

So far I think it's working. The uptake in vaccinations is pretty good. A vaccination center in Pasadena CA had to be closed because so many ineligible people showed up to get vaccinated. So it seems plenty people are anxious to get vaccinated, demand is outstripping supply at the moment I think.

This is part of the reason I'm waiting.

Technically, I'm eligible for the vaccine, paid for the taxpayers, simply because I'm 62. I could just call the health dept and get one today( the first one, I'd have to go back again obviously).

But I'm at extremely low risk, either of suffering much or spreading C19. I'm pretty reclusive. I'm not interested in attending superspreader events, like movie theaters. I always mask and sanitizer. I'm pretty sure I already had it, although I tested negative. The one person I'm most concerned about, my mother-in-law, probably already had it too. And she's been vaccinated since then.

I think it better if the vaccine is provided to people who want it and who's lifestyle makes them more of a threat to the rest of the community. I'm eligible, due to my age. If I were a decade younger, I'd be on a waiting list. Because there aren't enough vaccinations available for everyone, and I'm low risk of everything. I'd rather keep my doses available for the 50ish people who have a more pressing need.

Maybe in May things will be different. But right now I don't want one.
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think what separates us is that I think that personal rights are inviolable. Historically, whenever we've allowed the government to ignore personal rights it's ended badly. It's a slippery slope. We have a history of the scientific community being dead sure about something which ended up not being correct. I'm thinking about when we thought that poverty was a result of psychological flaws and we thought it was a stellar idea to make large numbers of these impoverished women sterile. Or the Tuskegee study. It's not like these examples are hypothetical. They all stem from the idea that some people, and in extension, some people's beliefs, can be ignored. This slippery slope is real.

I think it changes us. Once we start overruling those we think are stupid, and do things to them against their wishes, "for their own good" we will stop valuing human life as sacred.

I think we're better served by upping our persuasion game. If getting vaccinated obviously is so superior then how the fuck can be fail so badly in communicating it? I think there's a snobbery among the educated middle-class which I think is harming our ability to communicate with those less educated.

On Facebook I've read so many accounts of anti-vaxxers talking about how badly they have reacted from taking vaccines in the past. Clear examples of people confusing causation with correlation. This shit isn't hard to explain. Yet, we've failed their entire lives.

To sum up, persuasion is always better than force. If we can't persuade we should examine why we can't persuade and try harder, rather than going nuclear.

This measure is not for the good of the unvaccinated.
did you have trouble with the masking-wearing laws?

Masking is not invasive. Hardly an inconvenience even. But vaccinations is a bigger deal

 

[TomC]

Masking is not invasive. Hardly an inconvenience even. But vaccinations is a bigger deal

Once again, you show a lack of understanding about US culture or the sociopolitical landscape.

Our president announced, a year ago, that C19 was no big deal. It was a Democratic hoax, that masking and hand sanitizer was a plot to soften US up for government control, and he'd have the country up and running in April.

Masking is literally considered an unConstitutional violation of human rights by a substantial chunk of the American electorate.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly. I have no problem with plague rats being shunned.

This is the shit I'm talking about. We're far too good at dehumanising fellow humans we deem as the out-group. It happens quickly and can have disastrous consequences.

They choose to be an out group.

Shunning people because of things they can't change is wrong. Shunning people because of their choices should be legal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's more than snobbery and more wide spread that the chattering classes. It's downright authoritarian types that latch on to this passport idea. Look how quickly they descend into the dehumanizing "plague rats" tropes. *yawn*

So far I think it's working. The uptake in vaccinations is pretty good. A vaccination center in Pasadena CA had to be closed because so many ineligible people showed up to get vaccinated. So it seems plenty people are anxious to get vaccinated, demand is outstripping supply at the moment I think.

That mistake has nothing to do with what percentage of the population wants the vaccine. You would see the same thing if only a few percent of the population wanted it. The site fucked up and provided a copyable token. Anyone who participated in the old FatWallet forums would know what would happen.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Masking is not invasive. Hardly an inconvenience even. But vaccinations is a bigger deal

Once again, you show a lack of understanding about US culture or the sociopolitical landscape.

Our president announced, a year ago, that C19 was no big deal. It was a Democratic hoax, that masking and hand sanitizer was a plot to soften US up for government control, and he'd have the country up and running in April.

Masking is literally considered an unConstitutional violation of human rights by a substantial chunk of the American electorate.
Tom

This discussion is about the whole world. Not only USA.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The Danish primeminister said that having a recent test also gives you access to the restricted activities. That calms me down a bit. At least it won't block the unvaccinated completely

https://www.thelocal.dk/20210310/denmark-to-agree-definitive-plan-for-ending-lockdown-in-two-weeks/

 

[TomC]

Masking is not invasive. Hardly an inconvenience even. But vaccinations is a bigger deal

Once again, you show a lack of understanding about US culture or the sociopolitical landscape.

Our president announced, a year ago, that C19 was no big deal. It was a Democratic hoax, that masking and hand sanitizer was a plot to soften US up for government control, and he'd have the country up and running in April.

Masking is literally considered an unConstitutional violation of human rights by a substantial chunk of the American electorate.
Tom

This discussion is about the whole world. Not only USA.

I avoid expressing opinions about delicate, nuanced, sociopolitical issues in other countries. I don't claim to understand them well enough to do so.
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

This discussion is about the whole world. Not only USA.

I avoid expressing opinions about delicate, nuanced, sociopolitical issues in other countries. I don't claim to understand them well enough to do so.
Tom

This virus doesn't give a shit about your political affiliations. I think it's dumb that it was politicized in the USA. I don't need to be an American to understand the idiocy of that. There's no nuance here to understand. Yes, it's nice to have a grasp of the delicate and nuanced sociopolitical background that led to this situation, which I, for understandable reasons, have less of a good understanding of than... well.. any American. But any citizen of any country can expertly opine on the value of using of masks or vaccines. Since we're all in the same boat here. Since this thread is about vaccine passports in the whole world I'd say it's entirely appropriate for us (you included) to discuss it for the whole world.

FYI, in Scandinavia it was not politicized. The political divide here was between tin-foil hats and normal people. While there has been harsh criticism of the Corona strategy in Sweden, it has not been along party lines. I find that interesting. Since Sweden fucking sucks at free and open political debate when it comes to most other things. Swedes are usually unquestioningly obedient of what our leaders tell us to do. This time around Swedes show some spunk and spirit. I like that. In Denmark all political parties support the strategy of the ruling prime minister. Which probably stems from that she nailed it and the data backs that up.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If anybody doubts me when I say that no country is listening to their health experts fully. It's at this point, to a large extent, ideology, on all sides. Not so much science.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56369550