Cultural Sensitivity to Excuse Behaviour

[Jolly_Penguin]

In another thread we have it being argued that we should be culturally sensitive to immigrants from other cultures when it comes to them being habitually late. Should we be? Should we consider that an excuse? And should we expect less of people because of their culture? https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?10993-New-low-for-academia

I take it further now and apply it to the misogyny that is so often seen in some cultures. Immigrants from India or the middle east for example. When a man immigrates from there to here and then engages in this poor behaviour (by our standards) should we excuse him because of where he came from? Should we be more accommodating of racists from the deep south where slavery was a thing than of racists from the north?

Now taking it even further, should this be taken into consideration in criminal sentencing? What if the person comes from a culture where property isn't recognized and is held communally, and he then comes here and starts "borrowing" things without permission and is charged with theft? Assume that they know we consider theft wrong. Should we be more lenient on them than on a thief who grew up here and has always lived with the concept of personal property rights?

 

[PyramidHead]

In another thread we have it being argued that we should be culturally sensitive to immigrants from other cultures when it comes to them being habitually late. Should we be? Should we consider that an excuse? And should we expect less of people because of their culture? https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?10993-New-low-for-academia

I take it further now and apply it to the misogyny that is so often seen in some cultures. Immigrants from India or the middle east for example. When a man immigrates from there to here and then engages in this poor behaviour (by our standards) should we excuse him because of where he came from? Should we be more accommodating of racists from the deep south where slavery was a thing than of racists from the north?

Now taking it even further, should this be taken into consideration in criminal sentencing? What if the person comes from a culture where property isn't recognized and is held communally, and he then comes here and starts "borrowing" things without permission and is charged with theft? Assume that they know we consider theft wrong. Should we be more lenient on them than on a thief who grew up here and has always lived with the concept of personal property rights?

I would imagine the line should be drawn where the cultural practice in question results in real harm to other people. Absent that potential, I don't see that it's a moral issue at all. Being late for something isn't a matter of morality, it's a matter of custom, propriety.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Get a grip. These are different kinds of things.

It's not about being habitually late, but instead having different learned thresholds of what is considered "late." In Argentina, it may be appropriate generally to show up to a party 40 minutes after start time whereas in some other country you might show up early to help the organizers with stuff. Party organizers may be embarrassed if you show up early when they are not quite ready with things in one culture or they may not in another culture and appreciate the help. Some things you think may be common sense or intuitive might actually not be, but culturally learned instead. Of course, it's also true that there are sub-cultures within cultures and these amorphous things all may provide different kinds of learning. So sometimes, it's also the individual. Do open your mind though to people having different thresholds of things due to different experiences to include but not be limited to different group standards.

On the other hand, some other types of things you may reject such as domestic abuse against wives. But you're practically proselytizing against an imaginary hyper-relative left here. Why don't you tackle something more controversial such as spanking toddlers as a means of discipline? Should people be tolerant of them? At what point does it become abuse? Note that people will disagree. Or choose something where a culture different from your own might actually have the moral high ground, such as eating animals or hunting and murdering them for sport. Would you prefer those cultures be tolerant of you and provide flexibility to your different standards or not?

Last point: "Assume that they know we consider theft wrong." Why add this constraint? Sheesh. Challenge yourself and others. How about this instead: in my state there are fines against tinted car windows at some particular threshold. Let's suppose someone is from another state where their "culture" is that tinted windows are completely acceptable [and legal] at twice the opacity tint level [made up terminology]. Then, they drive their car down to my state during an emergency situation. Should the police officer just give them a warning instead?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I would imagine the line should be drawn where the cultural practice in question results in real harm to other people. Absent that potential, I don't see that it's a moral issue at all. Being late for something isn't a matter of morality, it's a matter of custom, propriety.

That seems relative. Being late may be very offensive to people of some cultures and not to people of others.

Misogyny likewise. There are behaviours in some cultures that is just standard and not meant to be offensive or taken to be offensive by people within those cultures, that people in other cultures would balk at.

Another case would be calling trans etc people by preferred pronouns, including gender neutral ones. That is becoming an expectation where I live. That would never occur to people of other cultures.

Theft is a clearer line, since laws have been put in place.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Get a grip. These are different kinds of things.

*Grabs Don2 in a warm embrace* Ok, now I've got a grip. What do you want me to do now?

It is the principle that I'm asking about. Of course these tings are all different. Why can't you just give your answer without the snark?

On the other hand, some other types of things you may reject such as domestic abuse against wives. But you're practically proselytizing against an imaginary hyper-relative left here. Why don't you tackle something more controversial such as spanking toddlers as a means of discipline? Or choose something where a culture different from your own might actually have the moral high ground, such as eating animals or hunting and murdering them for sport.

Those are all good examples.

It's not about being habitually late, but instead having different learned thresholds of what is considered "late."

Just as its not about hating women, but about having different learned thresholds of what constitutes misogyny. Same for what constitutes animal abuse in your example above,

The question is, is cultural upbringing something that we should consider when judging others who have immigrated to another country and are aware of the laws and expectations there? A secondary question would be should we presume and push different

"Assume that they know we consider theft wrong." Why add this constraint? Sheesh. Challenge yourself and others. How about this instead: in my state there are fines against tinted car windows at some particular threshold. Let's suppose someone is from another state where their "culture" is that tinted windows are completely acceptable [and legal] at twice the opacity tint level [made up terminology]. Then, they drive their car down to my state during an emergency situation. Should the police officer just give them a warning instead?

Them knowing we consider the action wrong is vital. A person from a commune may not know that and then they WOULD have some moral, if not legal, basis of excuse, just as you point out with regard to tinted windows violations. If you don't know its a taboo or forbidden thing, or don't know why it is considered a problem, you can hardly be morally blamed for doing it.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Them knowing we consider the action wrong is vital. A person from a commune may not know that and then they WOULD have some moral, if not legal, basis of excuse, just as you point out with regard to tinted windows violations. If you don't know its a taboo or forbidden thing, or don't know why it is considered a problem, you can hardly be morally blamed for doing it.

If all that were true, then it's a terrible analogy to the original question of what different cultures consider to be X, i.e, "late" or whatever. And moreover, you should quickly change your opinion on the original issue and apologize to the original thread.

 

[PyramidHead]

I would imagine the line should be drawn where the cultural practice in question results in real harm to other people. Absent that potential, I don't see that it's a moral issue at all. Being late for something isn't a matter of morality, it's a matter of custom, propriety.

That seems relative. Being late may be very offensive to people of some cultures and not to people of others.

Then, to the extent that it's really disruptive, it should be managed accordingly. If it's just a few minutes and doesn't affect anybody other than the person who is late, it's probably not worth getting upset about. Nobody has the right never to be offended, anyway. If the offense is repeated and has tangible consequences that go beyond just hurt feelings, that's another thing. But it's really not a moral concern until it reaches that point.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Them knowing we consider the action wrong is vital. A person from a commune may not know that and then they WOULD have some moral, if not legal, basis of excuse, just as you point out with regard to tinted windows violations. If you don't know its a taboo or forbidden thing, or don't know why it is considered a problem, you can hardly be morally blamed for doing it.

If all that were true, then it's a terrible analogy to the original question of what different cultures consider to be X, i.e, "late" or whatever. And moreover, you should quickly change your opinion on the original issue and apologize to the original thread.

?? What are you on about? You appear to have completely misread me.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...choose something where a culture different from your own might actually have the moral high ground, such as eating animals or hunting and murdering them for sport. Would you prefer those cultures be tolerant of you and provide flexibility to your different standards or not?

...?

 

[TSwizzle]

I take it further now and apply it to the misogyny that is so often seen in some cultures. Immigrants from India or the middle east for example. When a man immigrates from there to here and then engages in this poor behaviour (by our standards) should we excuse him because of where he came from?

Of course not. Who even suggests such a thing ?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

...choose something where a culture different from your own might actually have the moral high ground, such as eating animals or hunting and murdering them for sport. Would you prefer those cultures be tolerant of you and provide flexibility to your different standards or not?

Not. If the rule of the society I immigrate into is that hunting and eating meat is banned, and I am aware of it, I shouldn't be presumed to or excused for breaking that rule just because I'm from Canada where people still eat meat. Nor should I be given leniency or not be cringed at if it is merely taboo there. This is of course a hypothetical since I'm a vegetarian myself.

- - - Updated - - -

I take it further now and apply it to the misogyny that is so often seen in some cultures. Immigrants from India or the middle east for example. When a man immigrates from there to here and then engages in this poor behaviour (by our standards) should we excuse him because of where he came from?

Of course not. Who even suggests such a thing ?

I have met a few feminists who have said such a thing. This forum tends to lean heavily in that direction, so I was wondering if I'd find more such people here. I've even seen people downplay particular rapes (though not outright excuse them) due to the rapist being from another culture.

 

[TSwizzle]

I take it further now and apply it to the misogyny that is so often seen in some cultures. Immigrants from India or the middle east for example. When a man immigrates from there to here and then engages in this poor behaviour (by our standards) should we excuse him because of where he came from?

Of course not. Who even suggests such a thing ?

I have met a few feminists who have said such a thing.

Then they are idiots and quite rare.

This forum tends to lean heavily in that direction, so I was wondering if I'd find more such people here. I've even seen people downplay particular rapes (though not outright excuse them) due to the rapist being from another culture.

I can't say I have seen it.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I've even seen people downplay particular rapes (though not outright excuse them) due to the rapist being from another culture.

Very true. It's extremely bigoted against fraternity culture to complain about people celebrating the traditional "freshman rape of the girl who passed out in the back room" festival.

 

[ronburgundy]

It makes no sense to have different ethical judgments about people actions, based upon their culture. Between culture deviations from what one deems "good" behavior are always the result of past experiences. That is no more or less true whether talking about withing or between "culture" differences. In fact, the concept of culture is so vague (and not very intellectually sound) that every individual is essentially their own "culture" because they are the crux of the intersection among a unique infinite set of circumstances. So, all variation in action is "cultural", they making it meaningless to consider whether any particular action (or deviation from expected action) was "cultural". Anything that you are willing to excuse for cultural reasons is something you have no good basis to judge anyone on in the first place, and anything that you do judge anyone on is equally valid to judge people from other cultures on.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Well said Ron. I agree. And i consider that a liberal value and true anti-discrimination

 

[Angra Mainyu]

That seems relative.

Your questions "Should we be? Should we consider that an excuse?" seem to suggest either it's not relative (which is my position), or you're asking relative to your culture.

Being late may be very offensive to people of some cultures and not to people of others.

Misogyny likewise. There are behaviours in some cultures that is just standard and not meant to be offensive or taken to be offensive by people within those cultures, that people in other cultures would balk at.

There is a difference.
If the custom is that if they say "at z pm" (for example), it's customary to show up between z.30 and z+1 (e.g., a party in Argentina, as pointed out), that is not wrong; we can quibble about whether it's late; perhaps, the meaning of "late" depends on the context, perhaps it's not late, etc., but regardless, it's not immoral.
On the other hand, misogynistic behavior (not under threat, etc.) is immoral, even if in many cultures, many misogynistic behaviors are not widely believed to be immoral, and sometimes are believed to be morally obligatory.

Another case would be calling trans etc people by preferred pronouns, including gender neutral ones. That is becoming an expectation where I live. That would never occur to people of other cultures.

Here, relevant questions are:
1. Are those people men or women?
2. In the other cultures in question, the words usually translated as "man", "woman", etc., are being properly translated? What about pronouns?

And so on. It's a matter for another thread. But the expectation where you live is a matter of the moral beliefs of the people around you. Whether they are correct is another matter.

Theft is a clearer line, since laws have been put in place.

And in some places, there are laws against blasphemy, apostasy, etc. But that does not make those behaviors (or beliefs) immoral. Rather, the laws are immoral.

Not. If the rule of the society I immigrate into is that hunting and eating meat is banned, and I am aware of it, I shouldn't be presumed to or excused for breaking that rule just because I'm from Canada where people still eat meat. Nor should I be given leniency or not be cringed at if it is merely taboo there. This is of course a hypothetical since I'm a vegetarian myself.

That raises questions such as whether eating meat is morally acceptable, whether a ban on eating meat is morally acceptable, whether braking a ban on eating meat is morally acceptable, etc.
However, let's say that A is a human rights activist and migrates to country X because she wants to help the victims of, say, FGM, or racist laws, or attacks against a sexual or religious minority, etc.
While A should not expect that she will be given leniency if caught (unless she has specific reasons for that), in fact she does not deserve to be punish, and if she is punished, those punishing her are behaving immorally (unless there is a sufficient threat or something like that that might justify their behavior, but in that case, their intent is - in a significant sense - not punitive).

That said, in certain cultures, lack of moral knowledge might make certain behaviors less immoral, and lack of non-moral knowledge, make some behaviors not immoral. But in the end, one has to assess the morality of the behavior in question (which of course includes assessing the intentions of and information available to the person acting).