Dear iidb: Guy babbling about Christ, evolution, and the big bang.

[Jarhyn]

Am I nit being clear Learner?

I speculate based on what I know of mythology, communications. religion, people. and the geopolitics of the day in Israel.

What you have as Christianity today traces back to a political compromise at the Council Of Nivea between different versions and power factions within Christianity. The RCC still claims after over a 1000 yars to be the one true Christian church.

A major issue was whether Jesus was divine or not. After the new synthesis that defined what it meant to be Christian competing versions were harshly suppressed, writings were destroyed.

A question us what was the intention of the gospel writers. With the obvious Greek influence to me it was targeting non Jewish gentiles/pagans in the Roman empire.

Jesus as a demigod would appeal to Greeks and Romans. It fits their historical mythology.

So as I said I do not take the gospels and NT in general as factual. Illiteracy dominated and communication was by word of mouth subject to errors and intentional additions and fabrication and embellishments.

The common core of Christianity as it became is the Nicene Creed. Look it up.

Outside of the RCC which defines its theology, Christians freely interpret OT and NT as it suits them. Courtesy of The Reformation. Have you heard of that?

To me you are a run of the mill Christian.

There are non western Christian traditions today that trace back to the ancient times.

This is why I strongly urge Learner to read the Coptic Gospel of Thomas, among other documents. It is among one of the very earliest and simplest gospels, containing a minimal number of quotes existing almost entirely without context.

Of all the quotes of and from Jesus in other gospels, these have the highest probability of being "real attributions" because they are simple, consistent, sometimes rather bizarre, and were neither shoehorned together to force a narrative nor stored originally in a way to imply the people who cared about it were beholden to worship the damn thing - the oldest copy discovered was stored alongside secular philosophy.

Personally, I want to get my hands on legitimate traditions, beliefs, histories, and ideological structures of the last remaining JtB cult just so I can compare their beliefs with Christians and see what attributions might be appropriations?

 

[steve_bank]

W hen I stared Firefox yesterday here was a report that John Travolta had died. I clicked on it an it was a poorly written rambling report that really sad nothing, AI.

I looked around appparently it was a rumor or maybe a hoax that got started and took off.

Imagine 2000 years ago with word of mouth communication and no fact checking. Illiteracy and superstition.

Not hard to see how stories of miracles and return from the dead could get started.

 

[Learner]

W hen I stared Firefox yesterday here was a report that John Travolta had died. I clicked on it an it was a poorly written rambling report that really sad nothing, AI.

I looked around appparently it was a rumor or maybe a hoax that got started and took off.

Imagine 2000 years ago with word of mouth communication and no fact checking. Illiteracy and superstition.

Not hard to see how stories of miracles and return from the dead could get started.

That fact that we can read. your post as the author of the time to the written dispute about J. Travolta false claims of his death...
...is not hard to see why we can easily dispel this as a hoax.

 

[unapologetic]

Jesus is the ultimate Rorschach Test.

WE create gods in our own image.

 

[steve_bank]

Learner

You can endlessly spin and rationalize around the basic issues of factual authenticity of the NT to support your belief.

That is your problem not mine, I have no such belief to defend. I have no need to dissuade you, but I do engage with what you say. It is what happens on the forum.

You do not seem to have any grasp of the history of Christianity and all the forces that had a role leading to what you believe today. The Reformation, all the different translations off the bible.

As I said I think you are are talking more to yourself than me.

 

[unapologetic]

Not hard to see how stories of miracles and return from the dead could get started.

Elvis rose from the dead. I read it in the Enquireor.

 

[Learner]

Learner

You can endlessly spin and rationalize around the basic issues of factual authenticity of the NT to support your belief.

You often say I'm "shoe horning" things to fit.
I would rather call it the 'Cinderella glass-slipper principle'.i.e. If it fits then it's more the likely.

That is your problem not mine, I have no such belief to defend. I have no need to dissuade you, but I do engage with what you say. It is what happens on the forum.

I have no problem with how you engage in these topic discussions. I am quite happy to also engage with topics in the religious section of the forum.

You do not seem to have any grasp of the history of Christianity and all the forces that had a role leading to what you believe today. The Reformation, all the different translations off the bible.

There really isn't any conflicting differences with a majority (if not all), translations.The differences are merely trivial between each other. Translations as in various languages only means a French guy preaches the bible in French and a Londoner preaches the bible in Londonese.

As I said I think you are are talking more to yourself than me.

 

[Learner]

Not hard to see how stories of miracles and return from the dead could get started.

Elvis rose from the dead. I read it in the Enquireor.

Intetesting. I'd love to see the top Elvis apologists putting their arguments forward, debating the likes of Dawkins, R. Carrier, and other well-known atheist challengers. Assuming Elvis apologists exist and there are such debates.

 

[steve_bank]

Learner seems to think I have to justify my disbelief in his theology. I do not.

Learner comes here to make his case. Some do, I do not go to Christian forums and argue against Chrtianity.

The onus is on Learner to prove the authenticity of claims made in the gospels and NT, and the OT as well,.

Somebody saw Jesus after he was executed.
Somebody saw Jesus walking on water.
Jesus said this, Jesus sad that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Learner

I have said my views and why many times.

To e me you are just another routine ordinary self declared Christian who claims to know the 'truth'. Endless biblical quotes and interpretaions.

All believers regardless of denomination, have to declare themselves Christian. I am quite happy to accept and declare that other denominations are also Christian as me. If the core of each of their faith statements (Christ is saviour, etc..) are the same.yes of course.
The majority if not all have this as there faith statement!

If one is claiming Christ demands them to be warmongers then I will compare with the Blessed are the Peace makers' litmus test. I use the simplest of basic logic to make the analysis. Saboteurs and corrupters will tell us Jesus makes no sense or the bible is hard to understand. Jesus has always had his enemies from the beginning...I think you get the story.

Yeah, that was the birth of Anti-Semitism.

It is a common tactic to dehumanize those who don't believe and/or question the belief as being an enemy,

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

W hen I stared Firefox yesterday here was a report that John Travolta had died. I clicked on it an it was a poorly written rambling report that really sad nothing, AI.

I looked around appparently it was a rumor or maybe a hoax that got started and took off.

Imagine 2000 years ago with word of mouth communication and no fact checking. Illiteracy and superstition.

Not hard to see how stories of miracles and return from the dead could get started.

That fact that we can read. your post as the author of the time to the written dispute about J. Travolta false claims of his death...
...is not hard to see why we can easily dispel this as a hoax.

Indeed, much like how we all know the 2020 stolen election was nothing but a lie.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Learner seems to think I have to justify my disbelief in his theology. I do not.

Learner comes here to make his case. Some do, I do not go to Christian forums and argue against Chrtianity.

The onus is on Learner to prove the authenticity of claims made in the gospels and NT, and the OT as well,.

Somebody saw Jesus after he was executed.
Somebody saw Jesus walking on water.
Jesus said this, Jesus sad that.

Fragment 112.5 of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a parchment, appears to be a court report of proceedings in the 29 CE case Hormel of Gadara v. J. Christ, which was a damage claim for the demise of 2000 swine. The case was prosecuted by Pete Pilate and the defendant was represented by Adam Ben-Mattlach. The prosecution prevailed; damages were assessed at 1000 denarii, which was apparently paid by "the women camp followers" and from contributions from local retirees.

 

[Learner]

Learner

I have said my views and why many times.

To e me you are just another routine ordinary self declared Christian who claims to know the 'truth'. Endless biblical quotes and interpretaions.

All believers regardless of denomination, have to declare themselves Christian. I am quite happy to accept and declare that other denominations are also Christian as me. If the core of each of their faith statements (Christ is saviour, etc..) are the same.yes of course.
The majority if not all have this as there faith statement!

If one is claiming Christ demands them to be warmongers then I will compare with the Blessed are the Peace makers' litmus test. I use the simplest of basic logic to make the analysis. Saboteurs and corrupters will tell us Jesus makes no sense or the bible is hard to understand. Jesus has always had his enemies from the beginning...I think you get the story.

Yeah, that was the birth of Anti-Semitism.

Often the line of propagandists against the believers of Christ... the Jew.

Anti-Semitism is not a Christian doctrine. Anyone can twist passages to make false reasons to fit their particular agendas, just like various racist groups do, although oddly they're forgetting/oblivious Jesus is a Jew!

Oh my, such is the irony.

Its simply the hijacking of the Gospels, that has become quite an art through time:

Hijacking in order to influence alternative and deceitful motives that is opposite or has no resemblance to Jesus' sayings: love your neighbour, and love your enemies as yourself etc & etc, or solely it's to deliberately undermine that very Christianity.

It is a common tactic to dehumanize those who don't believe and/or question the belief as being an enemy,

Sure, the agenda will depend on the who's doing what by their actions - the intention and what gains they'd be getting from it.

My use of the biblical narrative would not be the same as a person twisting and using the narrative to put out there, claiming that "their race is the superior master race".

 

[Learner]

Learner seems to think I have to justify my disbelief in his theology. I do not.

steve-b thinks I think that but I do not.

Learner comes here to make his case. Some do, I do not go to Christian forums and argue against Chrtianity.

If the thread is only for atheists to discuss (and mock), then I will abide by that rule. You only need to say.

You don't go to Christian forums and argue your case? Are atheists not allowed to debate at these sites?

I'm mainly on the religious section on the forum in which is the only place I'll talk about the Christian topic

I never round up or mentioned to other Christians to come and invade the forum, like us versus them. The theists you know as regulars here, respect the forum and it's rules

The onus is on Learner to prove the authenticity of claims made in the gospels and NT, and the OT as well,.

I have explained the reasons why I believe the Gospels. And I often disagree with your take of the Christian origins and other errors (as I see it) that you make about the bible..

Somebody saw Jesus after he was executed.
Somebody saw Jesus walking on water.
Jesus said this, Jesus sad that.

Somebody is always writing about events that has been witnessed by somebody. Read the news today?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Yeah. 4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire.

 

[steve_bank]

Learner

Once again ignorance through rose colored glasses.

Genitals cooped Jewish scripture and Jesus as their own, in the process antagonism grew.

Christianity is supposed to be universal, anyone can be Christian.

Jews are more complicated. Conversions aside, there is a racial component. You being Jewish is determent by the maternal blood line. Right there is a split between a Jewish Jesus and gentile Christians.

In Judaism, maternal descent means that Jewish identity and status are passed down through the mother. According to traditional Jewish law (halacha), if a person's biological mother is Jewish, the child is automatically considered Jewish, regardless of the father's lineage.

It is politically incorrect to say it, there is a racist component to Judaism.

Given the long history of abuse of Jews in Europe by the Christians continued into America it is hard to argue there is no antisemitism in Christianity.


Of course it was not all Christians,.

'Learner', have you read or even heard of Shakespeare's Merchant Of Venice?


Yo0u can say it is not part of dogma, but it existed.

Starting in the 90s I saw a Christian shift from antisemitism to prophesies that included restoration of the Temple to the second cumming.

When I was a kid I heard 'Jews killed Christ'.

 

[Rhea]

Its simply the hijacking of the Gospels, that has become quite an art through time:

If only there existed an all powerful being who could effortlessly clear up these misunderstandings by writing and publishing an unequivocal version of its true message.

Alas, it appears no all powerful being exists.

You don't go to Christian forums and argue your case? Are atheists not allowed to debate at these sites?

I’ve been booted off of several for questioning the existence of a god. So…. I gather that they don’t want to hear the arguments at all.

 

[steve_bank]

Learner

What is your experience of Christianity other than arguing about faith and who is the real Christian?

I am atheist but I like some of the white and black American traditional down home Christian music. There is power and feeling in it. The link expresses one aspect of American Cristian culture and experience.

One of the classics. It is not about theology or what Jesus said, it is about feelings.

Hank Williams I Saw the Light Song

Watch Hank Williams I Saw the Light Song video.

www.historyvshollywood.com

Mahalia Jettison.