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DERAIL: So the Crucifixion - What's up with that?

But it's a question of being propelled by the search for truth. Ok, I've studied epistomology. And it was many years ago. So I may not be the best at relating to people who haven't.

But anybody making a claim has clearly thought it through. They must have done some research on the matter. If you keep digging, step by step it will eventually reveal what problems there are. Research in the age of Internet is incredibly easy.

People saying things that obviously are false have cleary not done their homework. Were they ever interested in the truth? Or is it just a narcissistic urge to hear their own voice? The answer is the latter.

My big question is WHY? Why do they keep doing it? Why don't they get called on their bullshit at ever turn, even by their own? Why aren't more Christians skeptical within their own church? To me, if you're not skeptical about something you don't care about it. Could it possibly be true that all Christians don't give a shit about their own religion? I'm not saying they do care. I just don't get it? What's the point having a meaning of life this vacuous and uninteresting? Who finds that meaningful?
Because that isn't the way Christianity works. e.g. For the most part, Christians are taught that they shouldn't be skeptical about their religion, and they shouldn't dwell on their doubts. Doubts are often viewed as a weakness of the doubter (And not as being legitimately caused by a defect in the religion). Believing in things by (religious) faith is seen as a virtue.

Ok, fine. But then there's reality. Try that approach with doing your shopping or buying a car. Won't work out so well. Lost in the woods... try faith. You will die.

That attitude doesn't work for anything measurable. So why should it work for stuff that isn't?

I'm not saying you are wrong. What I can't understand is why they can't connect the obvious dots? Even here, on this forum. They think they're bullet proof. Yet their idiocies can be shot down by anyone making the slightest bit of effort. Why aren't they making the effort?

Syed's torrent of threads are a good example. He's just talking and not listening. He clearly has done zero research outside his bubble. Why?

I'm an atheist. I've read all sacred texts from every major religion that has ever existed. Because I care about learning about stuff outside of my comfort zone. I care about what is true. This attitude seems completely missing from the religious communities.
 
Because that isn't the way Christianity works. e.g. For the most part, Christians are taught that they shouldn't be skeptical about their religion, and they shouldn't dwell on their doubts. Doubts are often viewed as a weakness of the doubter (And not as being legitimately caused by a defect in the religion). Believing in things by (religious) faith is seen as a virtue.

Ok, fine. But then there's reality. Try that approach with doing your shopping or buying a car. Won't work out so well. Lost in the woods... try faith. You will die.

That attitude doesn't work for anything measurable. So why should it work for stuff that isn't?

I'm not saying you are wrong. What I can't understand is why they can't connect the obvious dots? Even here, on this forum. They think they're bullet proof. Yet their idiocies can be shot down by anyone making the slightest bit of effort. Why aren't they making the effort?

Syed's torrent of threads are a good example. He's just talking and not listening. He clearly has done zero research outside his bubble. Why?

I'm an atheist. I've read all sacred texts from every major religion that has ever existed. Because I care about learning about stuff outside of my comfort zone. I care about what is true. This attitude seems completely missing from the religious communities.
I would guess that Syed (and some of the other theists here) don't view their points & beliefs as being "shot down". They already know they are right... Why bother with outside research? This research would be flawed from the get-go if it didn't fall in line with their religious belief.
This is the mind-set you are dealing with.

Their religion isn't like normal decision making because it involves God testing their faith & the strengthening of their faith. And the importance of believing in their religion... even when the evidence points elsewhere.
Some may also fear having doubts, because doubts could cause them to lose faith and be separated from God, heaven, etc
 
I would guess that Syed (and some of the other theists here) don't view their points & beliefs as being "shot down". They already know they are right... Why bother with outside research? This research would be flawed from the get-go if it didn't fall in line with their religious belief.
This is the mind-set you are dealing with.

I am aware of the mindset. I'm just wondering why anybody has this, clearly, unhelpful attitude about anything in life? It's like those guys who try to assemble IKEA furniture without reading the manual. Because "how hard can it be". And then they fail, blame faulty design and fix with with a drill and some screws. I understand that these people exist. But how can they exist in such great numbers? How do they manage getting through life like that. How isn't their lives just pointlessly complicated and hard?

I'm not saying this applies to all religious people. Plenty of religious people have a little bit more nuanced concept of the divine. Religious people just being open to the fact they may be wrong exist. So I'm not saying it applies to all religious people. But pretty much all religious people who come here.
 
Ok, fine. But then there's reality. Try that approach with doing your shopping or buying a car. Won't work out so well. Lost in the woods... try faith. You will die.

That attitude doesn't work for anything measurable. So why should it work for stuff that isn't?

I'm not saying you are wrong. What I can't understand is why they can't connect the obvious dots? Even here, on this forum. They think they're bullet proof. Yet their idiocies can be shot down by anyone making the slightest bit of effort. Why aren't they making the effort?

Syed's torrent of threads are a good example. He's just talking and not listening. He clearly has done zero research outside his bubble. Why?

I'm an atheist. I've read all sacred texts from every major religion that has ever existed. Because I care about learning about stuff outside of my comfort zone. I care about what is true. This attitude seems completely missing from the religious communities.
I would guess that Syed (and some of the other theists here) don't view their points & beliefs as being "shot down". They already know they are right... Why bother with outside research? This research would be flawed from the get-go if it didn't fall in line with their religious belief.
This is the mind-set you are dealing with.

Their religion isn't like normal decision making because it involves God testing their faith & the strengthening of their faith. And the importance of believing in their religion... even when the evidence points elsewhere.
Some may also fear having doubts, because doubts could cause them to lose faith and be separated from God, heaven, etc

A bit sad to believe in a 'God' who tells lies just to test your dog-like devotion. At the time they would of course have supported emperor-worship and the Proper Authorities.
 
Frankly, I've long thought that Christians don't give a damn about the actual tenets and scriptures of their religion. I think it is the group that is important. Group identity and perceived group interests are primary, and it is the job of the clergy to direct these perceptions and mold the scriptures to conform.

Witness the whole Trump phenomenon: Can there be any person more anti-christian than Trump is? He embodies every deadly sin, but is hailed as a savior by certain far-right sects. I believe that studying scripture is a dead end in understanding religion. It is all group psychology. Scripture is the ornament and after-the-fact interpretation and justification. Everything important happens in the interaction between the congregation, the clergy, and the wider culture.
 
Yes. That's what I'm after. Say that God decided to give an example of a perfect life to humans. Why is that related to forgiveness and why couldn't he have given ths forgiveness before living this life, halfway through living this life or a thousand years after living this life, as opposed to right at the end of living this life?

God isn't a weak, limited being who's bound by restrictions and rituals to get things done. He doesn't need to tie one action to another action in order to make it happen. Most importantly, there's nobody except God who's doing anything here, so it's not like he's being inspired by somebody else's actions to make a choice that he wouldn't have made on his own.

Okay, I have finished my answer to this. Here is the first part of what I wrote:

The first thing I need to establish is we have not been told why God determined that blood sacrifice was required for forgiveness; all the scripture states is that this is the standard He chose and abides by as He will not contravene his own covenant with man. Leviticus 17:11 tells us what reason God used for this: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

This first paragraph may be all you were actually asking. If so, no point in including the follow up showing the reasoning for the progression to Jesus' crucifixion as being required.

Ruth
 
My big question is WHY? Why do they keep doing it? Why don't they get called on their bullshit at ever turn, even by their own? Why aren't more Christians skeptical within their own church? To me, if you're not skeptical about something you don't care about it. Could it possibly be true that all Christians don't give a shit about their own religion? I'm not saying they do care. I just don't get it? What's the point having a meaning of life this vacuous and uninteresting? Who finds that meaningful?

Science asks questions that may not be answered.

Religions gives answers that may not be questioned.
 
Yes. That's what I'm after. Say that God decided to give an example of a perfect life to humans. Why is that related to forgiveness and why couldn't he have given ths forgiveness before living this life, halfway through living this life or a thousand years after living this life, as opposed to right at the end of living this life?

God isn't a weak, limited being who's bound by restrictions and rituals to get things done. He doesn't need to tie one action to another action in order to make it happen. Most importantly, there's nobody except God who's doing anything here, so it's not like he's being inspired by somebody else's actions to make a choice that he wouldn't have made on his own.

Okay, I have finished my answer to this. Here is the first part of what I wrote:

The first thing I need to establish is we have not been told why God determined that blood sacrifice was required for forgiveness; all the scripture states is that this is the standard He chose and abides by as He will not contravene his own covenant with man. Leviticus 17:11 tells us what reason God used for this: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

This first paragraph may be all you were actually asking. If so, no point in including the follow up showing the reasoning for the progression to Jesus' crucifixion as being required.

Ruth

So, the crucifixion is just him putting the right cover page on the TPS report*? He'd included this bureaucratic requirement for anyone wanting to submit an atonement request for processing and he felt obligated to go through the same procedures himself? This is how I'm understanding your response. Please let me know if that's an incorrect understanding.

If that's the case, it still doesn't make much sense. The sacrifice is somebody asking God to do something which he would not have done absent the request. In the case of the crucifixion, there's nobody involved except God, so his forgiving everyone is just him doing something he was going to do anyways, since he was the one making the request. Nobody's asking anybody else for anything they weren't planning on doing anyways here, so it's not really a request in the first place.

Now, even if we view the crucifixion as some red tape that God just didn't want to cut through, how does Jesus's suffering fit into it? I'm not familiar with ancient Jewish sacrifice rituals, but did they need to make the goat scream? Did the sacrifice involve making the goat die slowly and painfully over the period of several days or did they just cut its throat and have it bleed out quickly? I'm assuming it was the latter. People are always making a big deal about how thankful we should be to Jesus for going through all of this suffering for us, but that carries with it the implication that this suffering was somehow a necessary part of the process and the atonement would not have happened if Pilate had had some random soldier smother Jesus with a pillow while he was sleeping. If it's simply Jesus filling in for the goat, why would the method of his death and how much pain he goes through during it be relevant?


* This is an Office Space reference in case you didn't get the meaning of the line
 
So, the crucifixion is just him putting the right cover page on the TPS report*? He'd included this bureaucratic requirement for anyone wanting to submit an atonement request for processing and he felt obligated to go through the same procedures himself? This is how I'm understanding your response. Please let me know if that's an incorrect understanding.

If that's the case, it still doesn't make much sense. The sacrifice is somebody asking God to do something which he would not have done absent the request. In the case of the crucifixion, there's nobody involved except God, so his forgiving everyone is just him doing something he was going to do anyways, since he was the one making the request. Nobody's asking anybody else for anything they weren't planning on doing anyways here, so it's not really a request in the first place.

Now, even if we view the crucifixion as some red tape that God just didn't want to cut through, how does Jesus's suffering fit into it? I'm not familiar with ancient Jewish sacrifice rituals, but did they need to make the goat scream? Did the sacrifice involve making the goat die slowly and painfully over the period of several days or did they just cut its throat and have it bleed out quickly? I'm assuming it was the latter. People are always making a big deal about how thankful we should be to Jesus for going through all of this suffering for us, but that carries with it the implication that this suffering was somehow a necessary part of the process and the atonement would not have happened if Pilate had had some random soldier smother Jesus with a pillow while he was sleeping. If it's simply Jesus filling in for the goat, why would the method of his death and how much pain he goes through during it be relevant?


* This is an Office Space reference in case you didn't get the meaning of the line

Okay, most of what you have asked here is covered by the extended explanation I wrote - so here is the whole thing:

The first thing I need to establish is we have not been told why God determined that blood sacrifice was required for forgiveness; all the scripture states is that this is the standard He chose and abides by as He will not contravene his own covenant with man. Leviticus 17:11 tells us what reason God used for this: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

This is also stated in Hebrews 9:18-22 “That is why blood was sprinkled as proof of Christ’s death before even the first agreement could go into effect. For after Moses had given the people all of God’s laws, he took the blood of calves and goats, along with water, and sprinkled the blood over the book of God’s laws and over all the people, using branches of hyssop bushes and scarlet wool to sprinkle with. Then he said, 'This is the blood that marks the beginning of the agreement between you and God, the agreement God commanded me to make with you.' And in the same way he sprinkled blood on the sacred tent and on whatever instruments were used for worship. In fact we can say that under the old agreement almost everything was cleansed by sprinkling it with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.”

The first blood sacrifice in the Bible is noted in Genesis 3:21 when Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden: “The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.” This was done to impress on them the consequences of sin and show them death so they would know what they faced due to their disobedience.

When God gave the law to Moses after the exodus, he established the standards for the annual priestly sacrifices at Passover. The sacrificial offering was to be a perfect animal or bird, with no visible blemishes. Every family was to participate in this on the annual basis for forgiveness of their sins over the year. It was also intended to remind them of the cost of sin just as the first sacrifice did.

But the annual sacrifices were not a permanent atonement and had to be repeated since the sacrifices were not actually perfect; they only appeared perfect. They are considered a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. This is explained in Hebrews 10:1-14. Verses 3 & 4 are particularly on point for this: “But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” In addition to this, it was not possible for Gentiles to participate in these rituals as they were forbidden to enter the temple grounds sacrificial area. So it was not only temporary in effect, it was also limited in scope.

Jesus' incarnation was God's chosen method of permanent atonement for man's sins. He lived a perfect life and offered Himself as the perfect blood sacrifice as atonement for all who accept Him as savior. As we discussed before, the method of his death was to fulfill prophecy regarding the manner of his death.

All of this is pretty standard mainstream theology, and is usually the basis offered as an explanation of the reason for the incarnation.

As for the suffering part - no, that was not a requirement for sacrifices. As you are probably aware kosher food has as one requirement that the death be as painless as possible. Since the ancient Jewish priests ate part of the sacrifices, this requirement would also apply to those animals. Typically their throats were slashed so they would bleed out quickly. But the suffering of Jesus on the cross was again necessary to fulfill prophecy about his death.

Hope this answers your questions. Let me know if it doesn't.

Ruth

Edit for clarification: The final paragraph regarding suffering was not part of the original response I had composed. I added that to answer a specific question you asked in your post.
 
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Jesus' incarnation was God's chosen method of permanent atonement for man's sins. He lived a perfect life and offered Himself as the perfect blood sacrifice as atonement for all who accept Him as savior. As we discussed before, the method of his death was to fulfill prophecy regarding the manner of his death.

All of this is pretty standard mainstream theology, and is usually the basis offered as an explanation of the reason for the incarnation.

So, you're saying that the crucifixion was God putting the proper cover on his TPS report. It was a bureaucratic requirement which he felt contractually obligated to follow because it was one of the steps in the workflow diagram which he'd had humans use. God didn't, after all, need to be reminded of anything when he made his sacrifice and he was perfectly capable to forgiving everybody for original and all other sins without doing it, so he was just going through the motions for form's sake because he'd made this prior agreement with humanity to use this method. The only reason for the crucifixion was because God wanted to check off a box in a process document.

I'm not trying to be obstinate or dickish or anything, but this is how I'm reading your response and I want to know if I'm understanding you correctly.

As for the suffering part - no, that was not a requirement for sacrifices. As you are probably aware kosher food has as one requirement that the death be as painless as possible. Since the ancient Jewish priests ate part of the sacrifices, this requirement would also apply to those animals. Typically their throats were slashed so they would bleed out quickly. But the suffering of Jesus on the cross was again necessary to fulfill prophecy about his death.

You keep bringing up this prophecy. My question to you would be "Who made this prophecy?". As I understand it, the reason that Isaiah (or whoever - if I have the name wrong, it doesn't impact the point) had this prophecy is because God told it to him. That means that the only reason that God suffered is because he had earlier said "... and then at this point, I'm going to suffer". The only reason that he needed to live a perfect life was because he had earlier said "... and then at this point, I'm going to live a perfect life". There's no need for those events beyond their being the random actions that God decided on. There's no difference between them and God saying "... and then at this point, I'm going to drink some beer and have some chicken wings". Then Jesus sitting down and having beer and wings would be the glorious fulfillment of prophecy which allowed for the atonement of mankind's sins. Even if God is somehow bound and obligated to fulfill the terms of the prophecy instead of not caring about the prophecy and ignoring it, it's his prophecy. He made it up himself. God created the terms of the prophecy and also carried out the actions of the prophecy. That's the same as saying that if I say "I'm going to the store tomorrow", I'm fulfilling a prophecy when I go to the store the next day.
 
That's the same as saying that if I say "I'm going to the store tomorrow", I'm fulfilling a prophecy when I go to the store the next day.

You know, that is not a bad way of stating things. God is omniscient and foreknows all things before they happen so it would be an accurate simile for what actually is considered the case in mainstream theology no matter what is being discussed.

And yes, you are understanding what I said correctly. God can be as bureaucratic as anyone in the government (or in Office Space world :) ) because he will not violate his convenants once made.

Ruth
 
And yes, you are understanding what I said correctly. God can be as bureaucratic as anyone in the government (or in Office Space world :) ) because he will not violate his convenants once made.

Well, that's just not true at all. He promised very specifically after the Flood that he wouldn't destroy the world again but then he let Donald Trump get elected President.
 
And yes, you are understanding what I said correctly. God can be as bureaucratic as anyone in the government (or in Office Space world :) ) because he will not violate his convenants once made.

Well, that's just not true at all. He promised very specifically after the Flood that he wouldn't destroy the world again but then he let Donald Trump get elected President.

Ha! His promise only stated never again destroying by flood. It will only be a violation if Trump personally calls on God to destroy the world with a flood - and He does :)

Been fun. Good discussion!

Ruth
 
If Someone proved to you that death was not the end and that a Higher Power really exists, what do you think their motive would be? Why would they bother making the effort to do that?

EDIT: Whoa, I didn't realize this was a really old post I was replying to. Ignore- the conversation has moved on.


Control? Eternal life is a pretty big carrot to dangle, even if the "eternal" part is pretty scary.

So if someone PROVED that there's an afterlife, AND claimed there's a good version and a bad version, and that he was in charge who gets which kind... that's a lot of power. If that guy said "DANCE, MOTHERFUCKER!"- a whole lot of terrified people would start shuffling and tapping their feet. And that's kind of the point of the whole organized religion thing. Getting giant swaths of humanity to hand over control of their lives, their habits, their actions, even their thoughts to an external power in the desperate hope that Higher Power will deem them worthy.

That's what being a Higher Power is all about. As Orwell put it:

"The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. [...] Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me."
 
Well, that's just not true at all. He promised very specifically after the Flood that he wouldn't destroy the world again but then he let Donald Trump get elected President.

Ha! His promise only stated never again destroying by flood. It will only be a violation if Trump personally calls on God to destroy the world with a flood - and He does :)

Been fun. Good discussion!

Ruth

The use of smileys while talking about the destruction of the world is really unsettling/horrifying.
 
Ha! His promise only stated never again destroying by flood. It will only be a violation if Trump personally calls on God to destroy the world with a flood - and He does :)

Been fun. Good discussion!

Ruth

The use of smileys while talking about the destruction of the world is really unsettling/horrifying.
Not a Gary Larson (Far Side) fan I gather...

gary+larson+the+fars+side+home.jpg
Oooooooooooooo!
 
The use of smileys while talking about the destruction of the world is really unsettling/horrifying.
This is a culture that decorates playgrounds and nurseries with happy cartoonish images of the flood.

Yet, they're horrified when two grown men hold hands in public...
 
The use of smileys while talking about the destruction of the world is really unsettling/horrifying.
Not a Gary Larson (Far Side) fan I gather...

Oooooooooooooo!

That's actually a pretty good point. I'm a HUGE Gary Larson fan. And Douglas Adams. Blowing up the world as a punch line in comedic fiction is always fun. But I certainly wouldn't be all smiles hearing that Earth would be demolished to make way for a hyperspace bypass just because it meant my favourite book is TRUE, and all my fellow Earthicans are gonna die in EXACTLY THE WAY IT WAS PROPHESIED!
 
Keep your towel close...

Not a Gary Larson (Far Side) fan I gather...

Oooooooooooooo!

That's actually a pretty good point. I'm a HUGE Gary Larson fan. And Douglas Adams. Blowing up the world as a punch line in comedic fiction is always fun. But I certainly wouldn't be all smiles hearing that Earth would be demolished to make way for a hyperspace bypass just because it meant my favourite book is TRUE, and all my fellow Earthicans are gonna die in EXACTLY THE WAY IT WAS PROPHESIED!
Yeah, I get that...but Ruth is not of the God-breathed Bible thumper flavor variety.
Hi funinspace!

No, not a YEC believer here.

As for an overall view of my stance on the historicity of the Bible, I am not one of those who thinks that the Bible should be read literally. The overwhelming majority of the scripture was written by Jews; it is pretty common knowledge that they were likely to embellish actual occurrences to mythological levels and use the resulting tales as a more interesting way to teach principles.
 
That's actually a pretty good point. I'm a HUGE Gary Larson fan. And Douglas Adams. Blowing up the world as a punch line in comedic fiction is always fun. But I certainly wouldn't be all smiles hearing that Earth would be demolished to make way for a hyperspace bypass just because it meant my favourite book is TRUE, and all my fellow Earthicans are gonna die in EXACTLY THE WAY IT WAS PROPHESIED!
Yeah, I get that...but Ruth is not of the God-breathed Bible thumper flavor variety.
Hi funinspace!

No, not a YEC believer here.

As for an overall view of my stance on the historicity of the Bible, I am not one of those who thinks that the Bible should be read literally. The overwhelming majority of the scripture was written by Jews; it is pretty common knowledge that they were likely to embellish actual occurrences to mythological levels and use the resulting tales as a more interesting way to teach principles.

Exactly right. And..... the answer is 42! I am a big Douglas Adams fan too. I celebrate Towel Day and even have a collectors edition of the Ultimate Hitchhikers Guide that my son bought me because he knew I would love it.

The smiley was simply there to indicate irony and apparently failed miserably.

Ruth
 
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