Difference between Heaven and Reincarnation

[Ramaraksha]

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, reincarnation involves recycling souls and using them again, as opposed to just dumping the old ones somewhere and then making new ones. So, it's more ecologically friendly.

 

[abaddon]

Cartoons are supposed to illustrate ideas, so that image+words together clarify a simple point. Your cartoons don't do that. They're just images with some highly personal free associations stuck on top of them. The point is lost in the string of randoms words that have no discernible connection to the image.

 

[sharon45]

The word "fantasy" can easily fit under the Reincarnation column.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Cartoons are supposed to illustrate ideas, so that image+words together clarify a simple point. Your cartoons don't do that. They're just images with some highly personal free associations stuck on top of them. The point is lost in the string of randoms words that have no discernible connection to the image.

You need to ask me - and then i can clarify - the problem, sadly, is that these ideas have never been aired except perhaps by Nietzsche - I believe he read Hindu texts and understood them unfortunately never gave credit to them. As for the images that is hard to do - to get it right, i mean - best i could do. I will have more

- - - Updated - - -

The word "fantasy" can easily fit under the Reincarnation column.

Reincarnation is nothing but offering life - Real Life - the life that you once had - it has not been proven but it wouldn't fall under the fantasy label - fairy tales are fantasies, "happily ever after" are fantasies - Heaven is a fantasy - the easy breezy life of sitting around doing nothing

 

[rousseau]

If I understand it, ideas of reincarnation vary broadly, but even atheistic ideas of reincarnation strike me as nothing other than a means of rationalising death.

No matter which way you slice it, when you die you will cease to exist.

 

[sharon45]

The word "fantasy" can easily fit under the Reincarnation column.

Reincarnation is nothing but offering life - Real Life - the life that you once had - it has not been proven but it wouldn't fall under the fantasy label - fairy tales are fantasies, "happily ever after" are fantasies - Heaven is a fantasy - the easy breezy life of sitting around doing nothing

And the belief of Reincarnation, with no actual evidence, I would also count as fantasy.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Reincarnation is nothing but offering life - Real Life - the life that you once had - it has not been proven but it wouldn't fall under the fantasy label - fairy tales are fantasies, "happily ever after" are fantasies - Heaven is a fantasy - the easy breezy life of sitting around doing nothing

And the belief of Reincarnation, with no actual evidence, I would also count as fantasy.

It could be - yes there is no evidence - you see this is just people searching for answers - wondering what this is all about - we are like dogs - looking around and not making sense of anything that is happening. And so religions came up with magic lands in the sky - easy life of comfort awaits.

Ancient Hindus saw that as a weakness - we see that in Muslims - who are quite open with saying our present life doesn't matter what matters is that which God do we pray to, and unless we pray to the "right" God and of course that is Allah we are destined to be tortured for eternity! But pray to the "right" God ie polish the right shoes of the Dictator, we cronies would be rewarded by the Dictator

Yes i am being sarcastic because i can't believe these Communist/Dictator religions dominate the world today. The very same person who would be ashamed to get a job not based on his qualifications, suddenly turns around and says your works(qualifications) do not matter, only praying to the "right" God will get you heaven

Ok enough of my rant - basically the ancient Hindus wanted to stress that this is ALL there is - Life is ALL there is - so they came up with the concept of Reincarnation

Heaven is a metaphor for the Womb, Childhood, the nest, the past - a time when we lived the easy good life, cared for, protected, sheltered, had zero worries! Religions take advantage of this desire & Reincarnation basically is telling us to choose Life, Real life, Adulthood and the Future

Just metaphors and i am shocked that no psychologist or philosopher has yet to see this. Everyone talks as if Heaven is real

 

[sharon45]

Heaven is a metaphor for the Womb, Childhood, the nest, the past - a time when we lived the easy good life, cared for, protected, sheltered, had zero worries!

Okay, as you have explained it here, I can now see the symbolic reasoning...

Religions take advantage of this desire & Reincarnation basically is telling us to choose Life, Real life, Adulthood and the Future

I just can not understand the sense of suddenly lurching into Reincarnation becoming "Real Life" when it also comfortably fits in with Heaven as another fanciful craving.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Okay, as you have explained it here, I can now see the symbolic reasoning...

Religions take advantage of this desire & Reincarnation basically is telling us to choose Life, Real life, Adulthood and the Future

I just can not understand the sense of suddenly lurching into Reincarnation becoming "Real Life" when it also comfortably fits in with Heaven as another fanciful craving.

It offers real life - you are reincarnated but you come back down here - nothing fancy - unlike Heaven where you get to go live in some nice retirement home in the sky

 

[abaddon]

Can you describe the biological process that a "you" (a soul?) will "come back down here" so that the "you" gets another life?

You offer an idea that merely fulfills your wish for justice. If that's wrong, if it's real life and not just wishing for justice, then you can describe reincarnation in a way that lets other people look and see it happening.

 

[sharon45]

Okay, as you have explained it here, I can now see the symbolic reasoning...

I just can not understand the sense of suddenly lurching into Reincarnation becoming "Real Life" when it also comfortably fits in with Heaven as another fanciful craving.

It offers real life - you are reincarnated but you come back down here - nothing fancy - unlike Heaven where you get to go live in some nice retirement home in the sky

And yet it keeps sounding real fancy anyway.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Can you describe the biological process that a "you" (a soul?) will "come back down here" so that the "you" gets another life?

You offer an idea that merely fulfills your wish for justice. If that's wrong, if it's real life and not just wishing for justice, then you can describe reincarnation in a way that lets other people look and see it happening.

These are but ideas on how one should lead one's life - Heaven is but one idea and it appeals to cowards and the weak. In response Reincarnation is another idea that appeals to the Warrior and the Strong

Much of life we do not understand - if we are just a computer, how come a computer - say big blue - is not springing to life? Why is it not self-aware? There are other questions like - i think of moving my hand and it does it - how is this being accomplished - a thought is moving my hand, my fingers as i type - what is going on? Yet we accept such things because we see them happening, even though science can't explain these things

You have been Reincarnated several times in this very life - first I was a baby, then a child, then a teenager, then a young man - now, I am getting into the Autumn of my life - all these people were me & yet not me. I know this because it has happened

You can't see Reincarnation happening so you disbelieve it - it doesn't prove Reincarnation - my job is to just add to ideas - ideas of ancient Hindus

The first englishman who said the distant stars were the same as our sun, had no proof - it was just an idea at first - he later found proof. That's who we move forward - ideas come first, proof comes later

 

[Ramaraksha]

It offers real life - you are reincarnated but you come back down here - nothing fancy - unlike Heaven where you get to go live in some nice retirement home in the sky

And yet it keeps sounding real fancy anyway.

Not sure i understand - you were at bat and struck out or hit a home run, now it's your turn again. How is that fancy?

We don't understand why we are different - what makes us self-aware? Why is a computer - a big blue not self-aware - it too has a brain like ours. Something is missing and what ancient Hindus said, if it has happened once, why not again?

Same with Alien life - we have no proof - but i find it hard to believe that we, who are made of star-dust, found life is generated only here on earth - if life can sprout here, it must be elsewhere in the galaxy as well

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Reincarnation is nothing but offering life - Real Life - the life that you once had - it has not been proven but it wouldn't fall under the fantasy label - fairy tales are fantasies, "happily ever after" are fantasies - Heaven is a fantasy - the easy breezy life of sitting around doing nothing

But it is still a fantasy. Reincarnation is based off of the same weak premise as Heaven, which you keep dissing. That premise is that we keep going on after death and it's not the end. They're childish fantasies for those who aren't adult enough to handle the truth.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Reincarnation is nothing but offering life - Real Life - the life that you once had - it has not been proven but it wouldn't fall under the fantasy label - fairy tales are fantasies, "happily ever after" are fantasies - Heaven is a fantasy - the easy breezy life of sitting around doing nothing

But it is still a fantasy. Reincarnation is based off of the same weak premise as Heaven, which you keep dissing. That premise is that we keep going on after death and it's not the end. They're childish fantasies for those who aren't adult enough to handle the truth.

??? Fantasy is happily ever after - that is Heaven - a magic Sugar Daddy will take care of everything - we get to sit back and enjoy the easy good life
Reincarnation promises real life - this is no reward - you don't get to come back as a prince or anything

I just don't get the fantasy part - is thinking there is life on other planets a fantasy? or something that has no proof? Reincarnation only offers a new life, that's all - down here. How is that a fantasy? It has no proof or proof that is being mocked that's all

In fact Reincarnation or life is compared to a journey or going to class - some classes will be good, others not so much - in one life i will be a Brad Pitt - enjoy the easy good life & in another a muslim woman trapped in a muslim country forced to be jailed under a Burkha and never get to do anything except be a housewife and "live" with an abusive husband

Lastly if Reincarnation is the same, wouldn't you have lots more people choosing it?

Again please go over my statement that says these may be nothing more than metaphors - Heaven is a metaphor for the womb, childhood, the nest and the past. A wonderful time when we lived the good life, someone watched over us, took care of us, sheltered, protected, we had few worries. Whereas Reincarnation stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future

If we choose to come back what kind of a world might we encounter? Maybe we get to live in a star wars world or maybe that nut in North Korea has done it and we get to pick up the pieces. Climate change comes true and the world is a horrible place with billions moving & millions being killed

That is why Heaven is for the child, the coward and Reincarnation is for the Adult, the Warrior.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Umm ... no.

What you're describing there is your version of a fantasy world, the same way that Heaven is other people's version of a fantasy world. The premise behind the two, however, is exactly the same and that premise is based on the childish notion that this is not it.

It's fine if you want to live in a fantasy world. To diss other people's fantasy worlds while promoting yours is less fine, though.

 

[abaddon]

These are but ideas on how one should lead one's life...

... my job is to just add to ideas - ideas of ancient Hindus

The first englishman who said the distant stars were the same as our sun, had no proof - it was just an idea at first - he later found proof. That's who we move forward - ideas come first, proof comes later

No. Evidence comes first, then ideas about the evidence, then tests of those ideas.

The tests, the criticisms, are not incuriosity. Believers keep saying that criticism of their ideas is close-mindedness and incuriosity. That's backwards.

Curiosity is very exactly the ability to not cling to and keep pushing ideas, however well the ideas would serve a want. In your case, the want is to find some justice in the world. Which apparently means nature should compensate for losses and adjust itself to people's levels.

Test your idea against reality, not Christianity. There should be evidence, in the natural world and not in the history of religions or the human imagination. The ancients... Hindus, Christians, all of them... could not separate their moral concerns from physics. Not distinguishing value from fact, they thought their "shoulds" had to be there in outer reality and so they shaped their story about reality to fit their shoulds. You're doing the same thing. You keep saying it's a metaphor for something or other, but you also keep saying people "get" to have another life -- and those two things cannot both be true.

If reincarnation is a kind of 'metaphor to live by', then can you say how it improves a life? Remember, if you answer, that it's "but an idea". And so, as a guide for "how one should lead one's life", it has to benefit the person BEFORE he dies and is reborn. It cannot benefit him WITH a rebirth. If it did that then it's nature doing things to him and, so, is not an idea that serves as a guide.

If it's an idea about nature that might someday be proved, then what's the evidence for it now? Not the proof itself, but some evidence justifying looking for some proof. Remember, the idea must come from evidence or it's pure fantasy.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Umm ... no.

What you're describing there is your version of a fantasy world, the same way that Heaven is other people's version of a fantasy world. The premise behind the two, however, is exactly the same and that premise is based on the childish notion that this is not it.
It's fine if you want to live in a fantasy world. To diss other people's fantasy worlds while promoting yours is less fine, though.

Right i have been told that i am an Idolator and i am destined for hell - in fact my mother is being tortured in hell right now - sadly have never seen christianity or islam being criticized for spreading hate for centuries now

Again these are ideas - what happens after death - they have theirs, we have ours. They have a right to spread theirs, as we do, the big difference is we don't condemn them to gas chambers in hell

There have been books - researchers spending a lot of time putting together evidence - as kids we seem to retain the memories of our past lives, then slowly we forget - so there have been lots of cases where a kid has remembered his past life - names, dates, places - unfortunately there is no way to prove that that kid did not just simply hear about it or see it on TV. But as time goes by and more evidence comes to light maybe we have a breakthrough

Heaven and Hell on the other hand shows that God can provide only Vengeance, not justice. It is like you have been robbed and you took the thief to court and the judge says he can either have 1) the thief get a 100 lashes (Hell) or 2) let him go free (Forgive). Neither is what you are looking for, neither is Justice. You want your money back, hurting the thief does nothing for you, of course letting him go scot-free is a slap in the face

 

[Ramaraksha]

These are but ideas on how one should lead one's life...

... my job is to just add to ideas - ideas of ancient Hindus

The first englishman who said the distant stars were the same as our sun, had no proof - it was just an idea at first - he later found proof. That's who we move forward - ideas come first, proof comes later

No. Evidence comes first, then ideas about the evidence, then tests of those ideas.

The tests, the criticisms, are not incuriosity. Believers keep saying that criticism of their ideas is close-mindedness and incuriosity. That's backwards.

Curiosity is very exactly the ability to not cling to and keep pushing ideas, however well the ideas would serve a want. In your case, the want is to find some justice in the world. Which apparently means nature should compensate for losses and adjust itself to people's levels.

Test your idea against reality, not Christianity. There should be evidence, in the natural world and not in the history of religions or the human imagination. The ancients... Hindus, Christians, all of them... could not separate their moral concerns from physics. Not distinguishing value from fact, they thought their "shoulds" had to be there in outer reality and so they shaped their story about reality to fit their shoulds. You're doing the same thing. You keep saying it's a metaphor for something or other, but you also keep saying people "get" to have another life -- and those two things cannot both be true.

If reincarnation is a kind of 'metaphor to live by', then can you say how it improves a life? Remember, if you answer, that it's "but an idea". And so, as a guide for "how one should lead one's life", it has to benefit the person BEFORE he dies and is reborn. It cannot benefit him WITH a rebirth. If it did that then it's nature doing things to him and, so, is not an idea that serves as a guide.

If it's an idea about nature that might someday be proved, then what's the evidence for it now? Not the proof itself, but some evidence justifying looking for some proof. Remember, the idea must come from evidence or it's pure fantasy.

You don't remember your childhood - in fact if you took the tests from your school days that you passed today you might fail. Does that mean they were useless?

"saying people "get" to have another life -- and those two things cannot both be true" that is how ideas work - lots of different things get tossed around - different people different ideas - that is how we grow as people

"If reincarnation is a kind of 'metaphor to live by', then can you say how it improves a life?" This is the Warrior faith - it asks us to not live in dreams, not to run away to magic fantasy lands in the sky - choose to live in real life - life that we see - Science also says the same thing. If more people believed in this there would be no terrorism - terrorists think they will be rewarded by magic being in the sky

Reincarnation also says that in this life i am Hindu, in the next an Atheist(well we are all born Atheists), then a Christian - the hate and division that the latter preaches will go away - lots of people were killed in the past because they were not Christian - pakistan is about to put a christian to death for blasphemy, Egyptian Christians have been killed because of their religion - so much hate based on religion will go away

I always say if the Buddha had been born in Christian or Muslim lands he would have been branded a heretic and tortured to death! His writings burnt, his followers killed, there would be no Buddhism today! No Sikhism, Jainism either! Half of the world's top religions came from Hindu India - that's not an accident. From the Christian and Muslim lands only one religion each - that's not an accident either. They simply killed anyone who thought of different ideas - ideas that challenge the status quo - see any similarities here?