Difference between Heaven and Reincarnation

[sharon45]

I will grant you that, since white people so greatly finished conquering people last, this is going to survive much longer and louder. Otherwise, you are clearly not giving Hinduism enough honor, because it is certainly seated prominently in the great religions of the world list.

And also, Asians are not considered "white" as you may think.

That is silly what does conquest have to with philosophy?

Have you ever heard of the phrase "The winners write history?"

You are justifying discrimination and racism based on some history?

I am doing nothing of the sort. See above.

When are we going to move beyond seeing people for their color?

Where am I saying this besides you blindly asserting it? Learn to judge more properly after you first have the sufficient facts.

Good ideas are good ideas, who cares where they come from?

I care, even if you do not.

That is what i expect from present writers of these books - to move beyond their comfort zones, but that is not happening

Many like to vainly throw out this term "comfort zone" as though they somehow are way above others just by merely alleging such. It is far more complicated than simply that.

Chinese are white - not Caucasian - i think that is what you meant to say

I did not say "Chinese," I said "Asian," and for your information, white is the common word for Caucasian, so, normally one does not call Asians "white." Chinese have many different shades of skin color, but of course they can be lighter than others.

 

[sharon45]

But it is necessary, and we take these memories with us across our lives, even if we do not honestly mentally remember everything, our recent thoughts and actions are still largely reflected by and connected to them.

You are viewing the concept in isolation - Reincarnation is just part of the faith - what it is trying to teach us

Obviously I see your point here, yet religions like Christianity and Islam are there to also teach us many new things, and believers could easily conclude that you are viewing, and in turn, primitively criticizing their religions in isolation too.

And what Reincarnation is saying is that something similar is also happening in this life also - you are not just aware of it.

Sure.

Someone is born a musical genius - and some people say it is because he perfected that craft is his previous lives, yes lives - it will take time to get that PHD

I understand, but it still does not change the fact that we do not remember the past life, even if we might supposedly inherent its gifts and/or curses.

As for christianity and islam teaching many things - well, i would love to hear them - not just assume they have something that they are not telling

Look, I totally realize the Bible is ripe with very hateful things to spew, yet there are also many wise passages and iconic stories.

Please read the Koran - have not yet gotten to the Bible but the Koran is horrible - full of hate - time and time again muslims threatening everyone else - Idolators, Atheists, people of other religions - all condemned as evil people & telling them God will hurt them horribly

I do not want to read the Qu'ran, and I am by far not interested in stating that you should read the Bible either.

It's not whether i am right or wrong - it is the discussion of ideas that will move us forward

Obviously it ought to be important to be right, but it is logically impossible to always be so.

 

[sharon45]

Only one i have attacked is Abraham ready to kill his son - I think Christianity and Islam are Master/Slave religions - God made in the image of the master/King - Master must be obeyed unconditionally & so Abraham was ready and willing to kill son

Yes, but as a story, this has different interpretations. An example being of course literal, yet still various ways of comprehending it also.

As for fiction not being lies - these people talk about Truth and everything about their religion being True, even though we have this sun circling the earth, the earth being flat, Evolution is wrong etc - if they insist that all their stories are true, how does one show that they are lies? Or just fiction?

For one thing, something that is actually true does not need to be honestly good, just true. Something could have genuinely happened, but it is still a lie.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Yes, but as a story, this has different interpretations. An example being of course literal, yet still various ways of comprehending it also.

As for fiction not being lies - these people talk about Truth and everything about their religion being True, even though we have this sun circling the earth, the earth being flat, Evolution is wrong etc - if they insist that all their stories are true, how does one show that they are lies? Or just fiction?

For one thing, something that is actually true does not need to be honestly good, just true. Something could have genuinely happened, but it is still a lie.

lol and yet you insist we don't remember our past lives, so Reincarnation cannot be right. It is like you took a test in the previous years tests and got some of them wrong - doesn't matter any more, what matters is what one has learned and what one chooses to do in this year's tests.

The goal of a Hindu is to gain Moksha - to be a God or walk in God's footsteps. Understand the goals and then you understand the behavior

For Christians and Muslims the goal is heaven - the easy life - and they are told pray to X he will GIVE you the easy life. For Hindus the goal is Moksha - it cannot be given, it can only be Earned. We are to be the next Einstein, the next Mozart, the next Buddha

What is the difference between Heaven and Moksha? The difference between pleasures of the flesh and the pleasures of the mind. What are pleasures of the flesh? Food, sex, safety - all in abundance in Heaven - as you know these can be GIVEN - all it takes is money - one can buy these things

What are Pleasures of the mind? Music, Art, higher education - these cannot be Given, they can only be EARNED! You may appreciate classical music but to really appreciate it, you must learn it and that takes time

As for stories and the Bible saying good things - yes ALL religions do - ALL religions teach good things & yes bad things as well - Hinduism has an evil facet - Casteism, you have heard of it - let's keep the good, throw out the bad and outdated - let's understand them, discuss them, but also understand that these are but ideas without a shred of evidence - we seem to have moved forward in every aspect of our lives except for religion - the dominant religions made God in the image of their ruler, the king - their terminology reflects their attitude - "Commandments, submit, beg, mercy, judge, wrath, punish, forgive, Fear" - ALL slave/servant words.

It was common in those days when brought before the king to get down on one's knees, beg for his mercy and swear loyalty to the king - that last was very important to the king, no king in those days could afford to harbor subjects who spoke out against him & that is the heavens you see in today's religions - King-like Gods, demanding loyalty and obedience and using threats if you don't comply

We don't live under kings anymore - we don't beg our way into anything anymore - in fact that is an insult in today's society - would you polish shoes to get a job or a promotion? of course not & yet when it comes to religion it seems people get brainwashed blindly following primitive religions that don't belong in today's times

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, but as a story, this has different interpretations. An example being of course literal, yet still various ways of comprehending it also.

For one thing, something that is actually true does not need to be honestly good, just true. Something could have genuinely happened, but it is still a lie.

lol and yet you insist we don't remember our past lives, so Reincarnation cannot be right. It is like you took a test in the previous years tests and got some of them wrong - doesn't matter any more, what matters is what one has learned and what one chooses to do in this year's tests.

The goal of a Hindu is to gain Moksha - to be a God or walk in God's footsteps. Understand the goals and then you understand the behavior

For Christians and Muslims the goal is heaven - the easy life - and they are told pray to X he will GIVE you the easy life. For Hindus the goal is Moksha - it cannot be given, it can only be Earned. We are to be the next Einstein, the next Mozart, the next Buddha

I'm confused. You seem to be saying two contradictory things here. In the first sentence, you're saying that we don't remember the things from the past lives and it's only the lessons we learn in this life which matter. In the last one, you seem to be saying that the goal of reincarnation is to become the next Einstein or Mozart, implying that we're building upon the things we learned in the past lives in order to achieve a genius level status in this one.

Which is it?

 

[sharon45]

Yes, but as a story, this has different interpretations. An example being of course literal, yet still various ways of comprehending it also.

For one thing, something that is actually true does not need to be honestly good, just true. Something could have genuinely happened, but it is still a lie.

lol and yet you insist we don't remember our past lives, so Reincarnation cannot be right.

Besides this not having to do with what you quoted above from me, I did not say that Reincarnation can not be right, I said what you are saying about it does not sound logical with respect to justice. While it has no evidence, general Reincarnation could be true, akin to the idea that there could be actually a god, but again, there is no real evidence of this either.

It is like you took a test in the previous years tests and got some of them wrong - doesn't matter any more, what matters is what one has learned and what one chooses to do in this year's tests.

Yes, except we still do not remember.

The goal of a Hindu is to gain Moksha - to be a God or walk in God's footsteps. Understand the goals and then you understand the behavior

Which reflects on another supernatural reward like Heaven.

For Christians and Muslims the goal is heaven - the easy life - and they are told pray to X he will GIVE you the easy life. For Hindus the goal is Moksha - it cannot be given, it can only be Earned. We are to be the next Einstein, the next Mozart, the next Buddha

Even if we honestly remembered, it is still a childish game and an insult to any normal genius, of course not counting Mozart and Buddha.

What is the difference between Heaven and Moksha? The difference between pleasures of the flesh and the pleasures of the mind. What are pleasures of the flesh? Food, sex, safety - all in abundance in Heaven - as you know these can be GIVEN - all it takes is money - one can buy these things

Fools have those simple things associated with Heaven. As I have already told you, it is all ultimately about the Christian or Islamic god. Nobody is shamelessly cadging in Heaven; they are only an audience essentially for their god's pleasure.

What are Pleasures of the mind? Music, Art, higher education

Music and Art are pleasures of personal taste, they are not entirely universal.

these cannot be Given, they can only be EARNED!

No, they are all easily given, just wisdom is earned.

You may appreciate classical music but to really appreciate it, you must learn it and that takes time

Right, as the pretentious snobs imagine.

As for stories and the Bible saying good things - yes ALL religions do - ALL religions teach good things & yes bad things as well - Hinduism has an evil facet - Casteism, you have heard of it - let's keep the good, throw out the bad and outdated - let's understand them, discuss them, but also understand that these are but ideas without a shred of evidence

Yes, but stories should not be censored, just shown that they are only stories.

we seem to have moved forward in every aspect of our lives except for religion

We are sorely behind in many things besides religion.

We don't live under kings anymore - we don't beg our way into anything anymore - in fact that is an insult in today's society - would you polish shoes to get a job or a promotion? of course not & yet when it comes to religion it seems people get brainwashed blindly following primitive religions that don't belong in today's times

Again, you misunderstand society.

 

[4321lynx]

We don't live under kings anymore - we don't beg our way into anything anymore - in fact that is an insult in today's society - would you polish shoes to get a job or a promotion? of course not & yet when it comes to religion it seems people get brainwashed blindly following primitive religions that don't belong in today's times

Yes , primitive religions like Xtianity, Hinduism in all its varieties, Islam, Judaism. Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc etc. The only problem then is the amount of effort and time that it would be necessary to spend teaching children morals and ethics and simple bloody considerate behaviour and simple good manners which religions help parents to teach, each to its own mode and with its own agenda, or at least teach the children when the teachers are not abusing the poor kids.

But idiotic bullshit superstitions like heaven, hell, reincarnation, transubstantiation, miracles and other fairy tales, for Christ's sake, for Vishnu's, Shiva's, Devi's sake, give up, stop wasting time, stop arguing about fictitious primitive ideas.

 

[sharon45]

We don't live under kings anymore - we don't beg our way into anything anymore - in fact that is an insult in today's society - would you polish shoes to get a job or a promotion? of course not & yet when it comes to religion it seems people get brainwashed blindly following primitive religions that don't belong in today's times

Yes , primitive religions like Xtianity, Hinduism in all its varieties, Islam, Judaism. Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc etc. The only problem then is the amount of effort and time that it would be necessary to spend teaching children morals and ethics and simple bloody considerate behaviour and simple good manners which religions help parents to teach, each to its own mode and with its own agenda, or at least teach the children when the teachers are not abusing the poor kids.

But idiotic bullshit superstitions like heaven, hell, reincarnation, transubstantiation, miracles and other fairy tales, for Christ's sake, for Vishnu's, Shiva's, Devi's sake, give up, stop wasting time, stop arguing about fictitious primitive ideas.

Wow, you must be really worked up by this, resorting to even invoke for Devi's sake.