Disaster of the delusion that all children are the same: blaming the teachers

[untermensche]

Yes I know. You have already told me nothing.

To make any claims about genes requires knowing specifically which genes you are talking about.

If the genes that create "intelligence" are unknown then we can't say where and how they are distributed.

We can say they exist even if we don't know which and where they are.

Of course they exist.

But if we don't know the specific genes we can't say anything about how they are distributed.

And we also can't say how much of a person's intelligence is controlled by their genes and how much is related to life circumstance.

 

[barbos]

We can say they exist even if we don't know which and where they are.

Of course they exist.

But if we don't know the specific genes we can't say anything about how they are distributed

Who is asking that?

And we also can't say how much of a person's intelligence is controlled by their genes and how much is related to life circumstance.

Yes we can and we did.

 

[untermensche]

Of course they exist.

But if we don't know the specific genes we can't say anything about how they are distributed

Who is asking that?

Mainly racists are asking it.

And we also can't say how much of a person's intelligence is controlled by their genes and how much is related to life circumstance.

Yes we can and we did.

We have crude estimates but no controlled studies.

How is the effect of circumstance measured in these studies you claim show how intelligence genes are distributed?

 

[Rhea]

Still trying to figure out from this thread what useful thing you would _DO_ with the thought experiment "fact" that the means of the two groups are different?

What possible use is that to you?

In either group, the range of that group FAR FAR FAR surpasses the difference in mean between the groups.
In either group, deviants from that mean are not useless or even desiring avoidance.
In either group, society benefits most from maximizing the post-genetic-lottery nurturing of the traits.

So what exactly are you planning to DO with this alleged fact?

And I write "alleged" because even while it not clear that you've established that intelligence is genetically different between races, it's even more unclear that somehow the magical superpower leading to superiority.

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is filled with educated derelicts. Perseverance and determination alone are omnipotent.

I submit that your society will be a destitute one if all you value is genetic intelligence.
So who cares about racial intelligence? Seriously now, what would you DO with some fact that said white people have 10 point higher IQ than black people?

 

[untermensche]

....Seriously now, what would you DO with some fact that said white people have 10 point higher IQ than black people?

Under conditions of white majority and suppression.

The question of course is, are present differences immutable?

We have no idea.

 

[barbos]

We have crude estimates but no controlled studies.

twin studies are prety controlled.

How is the effect of circumstance measured in these studies you claim show how intelligence genes are distributed?

You keep repeating this over and over again.
First of all, effect of circumstances was studied, and second of all you can be pretty much sure that there are no specific intelligence genes, there are genes which affect intelligence among other things.

 

[untermensche]

twin studies are prety controlled.

They are not controlled in the least. They are retrospective case studies.

How is the effect of circumstance measured in these studies you claim show how intelligence genes are distributed?

You keep repeating this over and over again.
First of all, effect of circumstances was studied, and second of all you can be pretty much sure that there are no specific intelligence genes, there are genes which affect intelligence among other things.

It is repeated because it is relevant.

But you haven't answered it.

 

[ronburgundy]

The OP had a valid point getting lost by OPs own insistence on the genetic basis of IQ.

The valid point is that the students that teachers get are not equal in the efficiency with which they can learn. Thus, evaluating teachers on how much their kids learn must take this into account. All that matters for this claim is that by the time a teacher encounters a group of kids, lets say 13 year olds in 7th grade, they come with a set of dispositions and general cognitive skills and abilities that impact how much they will learn, regardless of the competence of the instruction.
Whether the ultimate causal factors responsible are genetic or aspects of developmental environment from the uterus to their current age is irrelevant to that point.

But why stop at kid's general abilities that impact their learning? What about everything other than the teacher and school that impacts classroom learning, including the kid's interest and motivation to learn that is shaped by their environment and a lifetime of experiences? If the point is that the amount of learning or intellectual achievement of students in a class does not reflect the competence or efforts of a teacher, then this is true. But no assumptions about the genetic contribution to IQ need be made, and intelligence itself is only one of numerous such non-teacher factors that make this an issue.

 

[barbos]

They are not controlled in the least. They are retrospective case studies.

They are controlled studies.

How is the effect of circumstance measured in these studies you claim show how intelligence genes are distributed?

You keep repeating this over and over again.
First of all, effect of circumstances was studied, and second of all you can be pretty much sure that there are no specific intelligence genes, there are genes which affect intelligence among other things.

It is repeated because it is relevant.

But you haven't answered it.

I answered it.