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Downward Causation: Useful or Misguided Idea?

Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''...When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

Indeed. Some patients thought they had desired and initiated a movement (and moved) when in fact they hadn't. Hm. So much for the reliability of subjective experience (not to mention notions of free will). It might be enough to give a certain poster whose username begins with 'u' pause for thought, at least long enough to consider the potential benefits of actually reading more stuff which might be relevant rather than just squirting out personal opinions about what stuff feels like.
 
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Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''...When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

Indeed. Some patients thought they had desired and initiated a movement (and moved) when in fact they hadn't. Hm. So much for the reliability of subjective experience (not to mention notions of free will). It might be enough to give a certain poster whose username begins with 'u' pause for thought, at least long enough to consider the potential benefits of actually reading more stuff which might be relevant rather than just squirting out personal opinions about what stuff feels like.

Artificial external stimulation studies tell you nothing about how the brain works under normal conditions.

They tell you how the brain works when artificially stimulated by external electrical stimulation.

They tell you absolutely nothing about the abilities of consciousness to influence the brain.

These are marking time studies. Novelty studies.

Until some objective model of consciousness exists.
 
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Artificial external stimulation studies tell you nothing about how the brain works under normal conditions.

But maybe you only say that because you have such limited personal experience of a working normal brain.

I say it because it is true.

There is no working model of consciousness. No objective understanding of consciousness.

So we get these novelty studies that explain nothing about consciousness where electricity is introduced and the effects of totally artificial stimulation are for some reason looked at.

If I stimulate a muscle with an external current it will contract. But the brain does not use electric current to stimulate muscle. What have I learned about the neural control of muscles?

Brain cells can be stimulated artificially but they communicate with chemical signals not electrical.
 
By fuck your stupidity is scary.

Alright. If you want to go in that direction.

By fuck you don't have an idea in your head.

You think artificially stimulating a brain tells you something about how it works.

One could not be more stupid.
 
I feel sorry for anyone who has to put up with discussing stuff with you in real life and doesn't have the handy option to put you on 'ignore' as I am now going to do. Bye.
 
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You think artificially stimulating a brain tells you something about how it works.

In a word, yes.

Here's a free hint.

If you can move the arm using an artificial external current that is not evidence you can't also do it with your mind.

You have no arguments.

For me you are a total waste of time. I crush your stupidity and move on.
 
Yes, we're all very sure now about that. We have a 100% consensus on that.

Only a future special commission on the subject could make us change our mind.
EB

I'm fairly sure there are probably boffins working on it as we speak. They might be discussing wormholes in spacetime or something. :)

It's sort of annoying that we don't really know for sure if an experience of a conscious intention to move an arm comes before an arm move or not, or during or after, in any particular 'arm manoevure'. :(

What matters is that the brain should select the action before making sure the action takes place. And I'm pretty sure it's what is happening most of the time.

So I'll take this from the other end of the conundrum. I don't think it would be good for our own safety if we could select an action way before we would be to do it. Instead, it would be best if we had the impression that what we do follows from what we decide to do on the spur of the moment. Any other way would just be confusing, unsafe and ultimately a good reason for evolution to let us go extinct.

Also, if we keep to the distinction between mind and brain as different parts of reality, we can take the brain as a pure product of evolution and stop looking at the brain as anything but a straightforward control system making decisions on the spur of the moment on the basis of the information available to it from its various detectors. The brain is obviously just that. I can't see a natural process ending up in the existence of such things as brains if they're not just control systems.

So, given the length of communication lines and the time required to get a muscle to contract, I think it should be expected that the action selected by the brain just follows within a fraction of a second.

Also, human complex societies wouldn't be possible without the ability to plan our actions well ahead. But even here, we need to retain our ability to go ahead with an action only on the basis of an assessment of the present circumstances.

And, obviously, being fastidiously conscious of things is costly in energy and process time. So our brain needs to be able to focus one of its parts on a limited selection of things while some other parts of the brain run routine actions such as breathing and pumping blood into our arteries. Things we never actually care how they run even though they're absolutely vital unlike the issue of whether there is a God up there. We would just die right there if it were just for our conscious mind (thank God we don't!).

So, the assumption that we would have anything remotely like a "downward causality" option available to us for running our lives flies in the face of all the evidence we have about how our bodies are the result of the 4.5 billion years physical process of evolution. Me, i can't see that happening unless there's a funny God playing tricks on us.

Now, why would we need to be conscious of our brain's selection of an action if it meant the action had to be delayed? Most of the time that wouldn't be good. I can see how I would stop making typing mistakes if I concentrated on each one move of my fingers but it would also take something like one hundred times longer. Typing a typical e-mail, I would just die of hunger. So, I can elect to do it, but my unconscious brain will anyway retain the control of the action simply because my conscious mind isn't at all competent to do it. My conscious mind is competent to look at things from the chairman's seat while letting the competent and fussy workers work their magic unbeknownst to me. And there is really nothing in my personal experience of doing things that would contradict this description of the problem.
EB
 
All the available evidence supports the proposition that it is the brain and the brain alone is responsible for generating and shaping consciousness/subjective experience according to its neural architecture, state and condition in any given moment in time, basically...

That's simply not true.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/content-externalism/

For a start.

For heavens sake, I have repeatedly stated input from the senses as a necessity....input via the senses being information acquired from the environment: 'externalism'

It is the brain that acquires information from its environment, processes this information and constructs a subjective representation of the external world and self/consciousness, and all that involves, feedback loops, etc, etc.

It is the brain that does this. The environment is what it is regardless. That is the point.
 
There is no evidence the brain cannot be influenced by the mind.

None.

There is no evidence the mind cannot influence the brain.

None.

There is no understanding of what the consciousness is objectively.

None.

You ignore the evidence that supports brain state is reflected in experience.....drink enough alcohol and you get drunk, your vision is effected, your ability to reason, response times, etc, etc.....all because, wait for it; your brain chemistry is effected by the alcohol you have consumed.

Saying the magic words "brain state" explains absolutely nothing about consciousness.

All you are saying is the consciousness needs a normally functioning brain to do the things it can do.

You are not in any way saying the consciousness cannot effect the brain.

You have no argument or evidence that demonstrates the consciousness cannot effect the brain.

Meh. Consciousness has in no way, shape or form autonomy from the brain.

That there is information input (senses) and that there are numerous feedback mechanisms, neural connectivity, input, etc, does not alter the fact that it is the brain that is doing all of this.

It is not that consciousness acts, but that the brain acts while representing actions, lifting your arm at will, etc, in conscious form. That is the distinction. That is the point.
 
Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''...When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

Indeed. Some patients thought they had desired and initiated a movement (and moved) when in fact they hadn't. Hm. So much for the reliability of subjective experience (not to mention notions of free will). It might be enough to give a certain poster whose username begins with 'u' pause for thought, at least long enough to consider the potential benefits of actually reading more stuff which might be relevant rather than just squirting out personal opinions about what stuff feels like.

It's like water off a Ducks back. Hardly noticed and easily ignored.
 
Meh. Consciousness has in no way, shape or form autonomy from the brain.

Bad opinion pulled from your backside that has no evidence or argument supporting it.

You used your free mind to make that absurd conclusion.
 
Begin with a working definition of a deterministic universe?

Well, a necessary but not sufficient part of that definition would be one in which this:

https://www.quora.com/What-does-Bells-inequality-mean-in-laymans-terms

wasn't the case.

And in the case of physical determinism, one in which this wasn't the case too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach–Tarski_paradox


Because logical determinism is not the same as physical determinism and a brain that can do logic (or maths) can arrive at conclusions, and thus behaviour that cannot be arrived at any other way. Which, of course, would be downward causation...

Sorry, Sub, I can't quite make out in those links you provided what would be relevant as to the issue of human mind v. determinism.

As I understand it, the Bell's inequalities seem to me to suggest there's something missing in our current scientific representation of the physical world, although we know it's not even any kind of interaction between entangled particles. This would just mean we don't quite understand reality even as we can write down something that looks furiously like its very, very fundamental laws. And I would assume there's nothing new to infer on the basis of our failure to understand reality.

Banach-Tarski I don't take as being at all about the physical world outside. Rather, it's about the human mind and how it works. Personally, I'm inclined to assume that the physical world is somehow finite in every aspect, and I see our fundamental reliance on the notion of the infinite as our brain optimising its representation of the physical world. It just makes things much simpler to assume infinity. You can always add contingent limits whenever they would be needed.

So, I fail to see how these two things would even suggest the human mind has wiggle room. They just show the human mind isn't some kind of ideal perfection created by God to entertain Himself, but a very imperfect contraption that came out of a natural process that had to accommodate all sorts of very different and independent constraints. And we're doing stuff way above the pay grade of the Cro-Magnon, here. I think God Himself would be gobsmacked impressed by what tricks we can pull out these days.

Still, I accept that I don't myself entirely understand Bell's inequalities. So, maybe, I missed something there. Banach-Tarski seems more mundane to me, but again, perhaps I missed something.

Feel free to provide clues.
EB
 
Meh. Consciousness has in no way, shape or form autonomy from the brain.

Bad opinion pulled from your backside that has no evidence or argument supporting it.

You used your free mind to make that absurd conclusion.


You have shown that you have no comprehension of the nature of the experiments that I referenced, or their implications. You just repeat your assertions.
 
Meh. Consciousness has in no way, shape or form autonomy from the brain.

Bad opinion pulled from your backside that has no evidence or argument supporting it.

You used your free mind to make that absurd conclusion.

You have shown that you have no comprehension of the nature of the experiments that I referenced, or their implications. You just repeat your assertions.

What consciousness is needs to be understood before what it can and can't do can even be tested.

Claiming that autonomy is excluded is impossible until what an idea in the mind is is known.
 
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' That’s downward causation; the higher levels acting causally on the lower levels. '

Actually we see that in what in engineering we call Control Systems. Google state variable feedback. In feedback systems thinking in terms of reductionism causal chains .are fed back to affect lower levels which in turn affects higher levels and so on.


You can also google Mealy Moore State Machines
 
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