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Duverger’s Law doesn't hold up outside the US

Rationality only plays a tiny role in who we vote for:

Starting that fall, and through the following spring, Todorov showed pairs of portraits to roughly a thousand people, and asked them to rate the competence of each person. Unbeknownst to the test subjects, they were looking at candidates for the House and Senate in 2000, 2002, and 2004. In study after study, participants’ responses to the question of whether someone looked competent predicted actual election outcomes at a rate much higher than chance—from sixty-six to seventy-three per cent of the time. Even looking at the faces for as little as one second, Todorov found, yielded the exact same result: a snap judgment that generally identified the winners and losers. Todorov concluded that when we make what we think of as well-reasoned voting decisions, we are actually driven in part by our initial, instinctive reactions to candidates.

Todorov’s study indicated that election results might owe themselves somewhat to what the Nobel-winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman called fast, unthinking judgment, or what the psychologist Nalini Ambady calls thin-slice judgment: the ability to make any number of social judgments from a seconds-long experience. Students can predict a professor’s end-of-semester ratings from a silent video that lasts no more than ten seconds; employers can predict interview outcomes and hiring decisions from a little more; and voters can predict the results of elections from a judgment that is made in less than a second.

Obviously, many things affect voting decisions, from political platforms to sexting scandals. But if we control for the underlying factors, the research suggests that a thin-slice judgment retains its predictive validity, and it emerges as the single strongest predictor of victory beyond external factors such as broad economic data, like the unemployment rate; personal data, like age or gender; or any other single political measure, like whether someone is an incumbent or how much has been spent on the campaign. In one study of fifty-eight gubernatorial races, the only element that outperformed the thin-slice impression was a combination of two of the political factors most closely tied to electoral success: incumbency status and campaign spending. While we are never forced to vote based on one factor alone, the apparent predictive power of competence judgements reveal how deeply that quick impression may color our evaluation of more serious considerations.

...

Those facial cues, in turn, may stem from a far more basic impulse, since we respond to those same features as children. In a 2009 study published in Science, the psychologists John Antonakis and Olaf Dalgas suggested that, when we judge a candidate as more or less competent, we do it in the same way that children do. They first asked a group of adults to rate pairs of faces, taken from the 2002 French parliamentary elections, based on how capable they seemed. When they compared the ratings to actual election results, the correspondence was seventy-two per cent. The ratings even predicted the margin of victory; the more competently-rated the face, the higher the margin. The researchers then had a group of children play a computer game, simulating a boat trip from Troy to Ithaca, in which they had to choose a captain for the voyage; their options consisted of the same 2002 election candidates. The two sets of responses were indistinguishable from each other: seventy-one per cent of the time, the children picked the election winner to pilot the boat.

http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/on-the-face-of-it-the-psychology-of-electability
 
Whatever excuses you want to apply it is still the media corrupting the process and excluding rational alternatives.

In what way does running stories that draw in the maximum number of eyeballs corrupt anything? In a free society, people want to watch, listen to and read what they want, and the media companies will provide.

Driving election coverage down to the lowest common denominator is not democracy.

Democracy is first and foremost a free exchange of ideas.

There should be a national media coverage of elections free of filters.

Let the entertainment divisions sink to the lowest common denominator.
 
In what way does running stories that draw in the maximum number of eyeballs corrupt anything? In a free society, people want to watch, listen to and read what they want, and the media companies will provide.

Driving election coverage down to the lowest common denominator is not democracy.

Democracy is first and foremost a free exchange of ideas.

There should be a national media coverage of elections free of filters.

Let the entertainment divisions sink to the lowest common denominator.

What people want to watch is also a democratic choice. Whichever type of coverage get the most "votes" based on number of eyeballs will continue to get covered more heavily until the eyeballs start losing interest. And yet, all other sources and variety of stories and coverage are still available to those who wish to seek them out. Why do you support democracy in one area but not in others? Couldn't it also be said that the "lowest common denominator" decides who wins elections?
 
Driving election coverage down to the lowest common denominator is not democracy.

Democracy is first and foremost a free exchange of ideas.

There should be a national media coverage of elections free of filters.

Let the entertainment divisions sink to the lowest common denominator.

What people want to watch is also a democratic choice. Whichever stories get the most "votes" based on number of eyeballs will continue to get covered more heavily until the eyeballs start losing interest. And yet, all other sources and variety of stories and coverage are still available to those who wish to seek them out. Why do you support democracy in one area but not in others?

You have misconceptions.

The highest rated shit is not what people want.

What they want is something other than shit.
 
What people want to watch is also a democratic choice. Whichever stories get the most "votes" based on number of eyeballs will continue to get covered more heavily until the eyeballs start losing interest. And yet, all other sources and variety of stories and coverage are still available to those who wish to seek them out. Why do you support democracy in one area but not in others?

You have misconceptions.

The highest rated shit is not what people want.

What they want is something other than shit.

That doesn't make any sense. I have no idea how it could even be evaluated for truth or falsehood.

The closest I can come up with is that it's not what you want and you think it is shit, so therefore it must not be what a whole bunch of other people wants and must also be shit to them. There must be some cognitive dissonance happening there being as all these people are making the choice to tune in.
 
You have misconceptions.

The highest rated shit is not what people want.

What they want is something other than shit.

That doesn't make any sense. I have no idea how it could even be evaluated for truth or falsehood.

The closest I can come up with is that it's not what you want and you think it is shit, so therefore it must not be what a whole bunch of other people wants and must also be shit to them. There must be some cognitive dissonance happening there being as all these people are making the choice to tune in.

I'm talking about election coverage.

The people are given Trump and little else.

This is not a choice. They did not choose to be given Trump and little else even if many people watch the side show.

The media just heaps out shit and when some shit is preferred the media just gives more of it. It is one diversion after another. Nothing serious is ever discussed.

What people want never enters the picture.
 
That doesn't make any sense. I have no idea how it could even be evaluated for truth or falsehood.

The closest I can come up with is that it's not what you want and you think it is shit, so therefore it must not be what a whole bunch of other people wants and must also be shit to them. There must be some cognitive dissonance happening there being as all these people are making the choice to tune in.

I'm talking about election coverage.

The people are given Trump and little else.

This is not a choice. They did not choose to be given Trump and little else even if many people watch the side show.

The media just heaps out shit and when some shit is preferred the media just gives more of it. It is one diversion after another. Nothing serious is ever discussed.

What people want never enters the picture.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that the media is just a reflection of what the viewers want to/choose to tune into. It takes an active effort by millions of people to tune into the specific channel during the specific time of day to get the kind of ratings a Trump interview gets. Your denials of this don't change that fact.

There are all sorts of media outlets and shows where serious things are discussed. They get some people to tune into them but not anywhere near the numbers that a Trump interview gets.

If tens of millions of people started flocking to these shows where "serious things" were being discussed, you can bet your bottom dollar that they would get constant coverage on the most predominant media outlets.
 
You have to have some kind of funnel/filter system otherwise someone like you would waste everyones time. The primary point of this thread is that Duverger’s Law hast lost credibility. You skipped right over that and just went into a typical untermensche rant.

I didn't skip anything.

I tried to explain to those with brains that the Parties and the media work very hard to exclude a third party.

The fact that the US does not have a strong third or forth or fifth party is because of the work by the two parties in collusion with the media to crush any third party movement.

The Tea Party only has traction because it has billionaires supporting and promoting it.

You know what, there is a direct primary. If Ralf Nader wanted to run as a Democrat and keep his same issue positions -- he could. If a marxist wants to run under the label Republican she could.
 
I didn't skip anything.

I tried to explain to those with brains that the Parties and the media work very hard to exclude a third party.

The fact that the US does not have a strong third or forth or fifth party is because of the work by the two parties in collusion with the media to crush any third party movement.

The Tea Party only has traction because it has billionaires supporting and promoting it.

You know what, there is a direct primary. If Ralf Nader wanted to run as a Democrat and keep his same issue positions -- he could. If a marxist wants to run under the label Republican she could.

Is that true? Does the Party itself have no say over that? Does the Party have to nominate them if the person wins the primary cycle?
 
I didn't skip anything.

I tried to explain to those with brains that the Parties and the media work very hard to exclude a third party.

The fact that the US does not have a strong third or forth or fifth party is because of the work by the two parties in collusion with the media to crush any third party movement.

The Tea Party only has traction because it has billionaires supporting and promoting it.

You know what, there is a direct primary. If Ralf Nader wanted to run as a Democrat and keep his same issue positions -- he could. If a marxist wants to run under the label Republican she could.

Exactly what principle are you following by supporting the keeping of ideas out of the debates?

There are too many ideas for people to decide?
 
You know what, there is a direct primary. If Ralf Nader wanted to run as a Democrat and keep his same issue positions -- he could. If a marxist wants to run under the label Republican she could.

Actually, they cannot if the party doesn't wish them to be associated with them (there have been lawsuits to this effect). The only thing they are allowed to say is that they "prefer the Democratic Party". They can't run as a Democrat if the party tells them to cease and desist.

Ok, baring extreme examples do you really think it would be a problem? Would the Democrats not run Nader? I can see the Democrats suing a Black Panther member or the Republicans stoping a KKK member.
 
Actually, they cannot if the party doesn't wish them to be associated with them (there have been lawsuits to this effect). The only thing they are allowed to say is that they "prefer the Democratic Party". They can't run as a Democrat if the party tells them to cease and desist.

Ok, baring extreme examples do you really think it would be a problem? Would the Democrats not run Nader? I can see the Democrats suing a Black Panther member or the Republicans stoping a KKK member.

I'm pretty sure the Democrats would be welcoming of Nader should he wish to identify with them.

By they way, I think I was getting confused with open primaries in states vs. presidential elections.

California Democratic Party v. Jones presented the following question: Does California's voter-approved Proposition 198, which changes its partisan primary from a closed primary to a blanket primary, violate political parties' First Amendment right of association?

In a 7-2 opinion delivered by Justice Antonin Scalia, the Court held that California's blanket primary violates a political party's First Amendment right of association. "Proposition 198 forces political parties to associate with—to have their nominees, and hence their positions, determined by—those who, at best, have refused to affiliate with the party, and, at worst, have expressly affiliated with a rival," wrote Justice Antonin Scalia for the majority. "A single election in which the party nominee is selected by nonparty members could be enough to destroy the party." Justice Scalia went on to state for the Court that Proposition 198 takes away a party's "basic function" to choose its own leaders and is functionally "both severe and unnecessary."

Justices John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg dissented. Stevens wrote: "This Court's willingness to invalidate the primary schemes of 3 States and cast serious constitutional doubt on the schemes of 29 others at the parties' behest is an extraordinary intrusion into the complex and changing election laws of the States."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Democratic_Party_v._Jones
 
You know what, there is a direct primary. If Ralf Nader wanted to run as a Democrat and keep his same issue positions -- he could. If a marxist wants to run under the label Republican she could.

Is that true? Does the Party itself have no say over that? Does the Party have to nominate them if the person wins the primary cycle?

The Democrats are allowing Bernie Sanders to run in their primary even though he's not a Democrat. I don't know if they'd allow Nader to do so now, given 2000. Maybe had he tried then, they might have let him run in the primary, no way to know for sure unless there's a record of it somewhere. I don't know if he tried that route back then, or before.
 
I've got a big problem with his analysis:

Consider India. He's showing most of the votes on the bottom of the axis and a mushroom cloud of outliers--the problem here is that he's assuming that the two main parties are the two main parties everywhere. The mushroom cloud clearly shows this to be false, there are areas where other parties become one of the primary parties. He's really showing there's a greater variation in what voters want.

I'm not sure exactly what's going on in England but there is at least some of this effect there, also--there are clearly elections where third party candidates were on top.

Note that it ends up reducing to a two-party system in the end anyway, it's just the parties are a bit more flexible. Once the election is over the parties make alliances that reduces it to a two-party system to actually run the government. If anything this is bad because it gives small parties power vastly in excess of their numbers. Imagine an election that goes 49/49/2. Realistically you need any two parties to pass something, that third party has power 16x it's numbers.
 
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