• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Electron shells

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Atomic_radius.png

Atomic_radius.png
What is the horizontal axis here? What is the justification for choosing each data point's value of it?

no-one-particular, if you presented this graph to some professional scientists, or even some graduate students at a journal club, they will start asking lots of critical questions. If you think that it is beneath your dignity to answer them, and if you claim that they are treating you like Galileo, they will take that as proof that your ideas are worthless.

Nobody has asked me any questions. And I've already gone to Great Lengths to explain myself fully.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Atomic_volume_(Alternate)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Atomic_radii
 
Nobody has asked me any questions. And I've already gone to Great Lengths to explain myself fully.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Atomic_volume_(Alternate)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Atomic_radii
I found numerous problems with those two pages, problems that I listed in their talk pages. I also labeled them "original research", a no-no in Wikipedia.

Very shoddy "original research", I must say.

You would love to ask me about how I arrived at all that but you just aren't capable of asking a question like a normal human being are you? All you can do is shoot at me and hope that forces me to answer your questions. I pity you. I can't imagine going through life like that
 
Here is what I posted in those Wikipedia template pages' talk pages.


About the atomic-volume template:

I have labeled the diagrams in this page "Original Research" because their presentation of the Periodic Table of the Elements is highly non-standard and presented without justification. In particular,

The vertical order of rows is flipped.
The alkali metals and alkali earths have been moved from the left end to the right end.
Helium is in the alkali-earth column instead of in the noble-gas column, despite being a noble gas.
The lanthanides and actinides are inlined instead of below the rest of the table, the usual place for them. This makes the table rather hard to read.

The calculation of atomic size ignores the results and discussion in Wikipedia articles "Atomic radius", "Covalent radius", and "Atomic radii of the elements (data page)". It its also overly simplistic, because of the compounds that some elements form when in a pure state. In particular, the elements H, N, O, F, Cl, Br, and I all form diatomic compounds (H2, etc.), solid sulfur is usually S8, and carbon's allotropes include graphite (hexagonal sheets) and diamond (tetrahedral bonding). In these cases, an atom's calculated size will be an average of different sorts of sizes.

"Radius of ground shell" is unsourced.


About the atomic-radii template:

I have labeled this page "Original Research" for several reasons.

All of the numerous problems that I had discussed in Template talk:Atomic volume (Alternate)
The horizontal axis is unlabeled.
The lines in the graph are presented without explanation.
 
Here is what I posted in those Wikipedia template pages' talk pages.


About the atomic-volume template:

I have labeled the diagrams in this page "Original Research" because their presentation of the Periodic Table of the Elements is highly non-standard and presented without justification. In particular,

The vertical order of rows is flipped.
The alkali metals and alkali earths have been moved from the left end to the right end.
Helium is in the alkali-earth column instead of in the noble-gas column, despite being a noble gas.
The lanthanides and actinides are inlined instead of below the rest of the table, the usual place for them. This makes the table rather hard to read.

The calculation of atomic size ignores the results and discussion in Wikipedia articles "Atomic radius", "Covalent radius", and "Atomic radii of the elements (data page)". It its also overly simplistic, because of the compounds that some elements form when in a pure state. In particular, the elements H, N, O, F, Cl, Br, and I all form diatomic compounds (H2, etc.), solid sulfur is usually S8, and carbon's allotropes include graphite (hexagonal sheets) and diamond (tetrahedral bonding). In these cases, an atom's calculated size will be an average of different sorts of sizes.

"Radius of ground shell" is unsourced.


About the atomic-radii template:

I have labeled this page "Original Research" for several reasons.

All of the numerous problems that I had discussed in Template talk:Atomic volume (Alternate)
The horizontal axis is unlabeled.
The lines in the graph are presented without explanation.

And I answered you on the talk page (or rather pointed out how stupid your "questions" are)
 
Here is what I posted in those Wikipedia template pages' talk pages.


About the atomic-volume template:

I have labeled the diagrams in this page "Original Research" because their presentation of the Periodic Table of the Elements is highly non-standard and presented without justification. In particular,

The vertical order of rows is flipped.
The alkali metals and alkali earths have been moved from the left end to the right end.
Helium is in the alkali-earth column instead of in the noble-gas column, despite being a noble gas.
The lanthanides and actinides are inlined instead of below the rest of the table, the usual place for them. This makes the table rather hard to read.

The calculation of atomic size ignores the results and discussion in Wikipedia articles "Atomic radius", "Covalent radius", and "Atomic radii of the elements (data page)". It its also overly simplistic, because of the compounds that some elements form when in a pure state. In particular, the elements H, N, O, F, Cl, Br, and I all form diatomic compounds (H2, etc.), solid sulfur is usually S8, and carbon's allotropes include graphite (hexagonal sheets) and diamond (tetrahedral bonding). In these cases, an atom's calculated size will be an average of different sorts of sizes.

"Radius of ground shell" is unsourced.


About the atomic-radii template:

I have labeled this page "Original Research" for several reasons.

All of the numerous problems that I had discussed in Template talk:Atomic volume (Alternate)
The horizontal axis is unlabeled.
The lines in the graph are presented without explanation.

You are afraid to ask questions because you think it will make you look stupid. But you are making yourself look stupid now. And you are making an ass of yourself in the process.
 
Trolling in 3 easy steps
Whenever anyone posts anything just follow these three steps

1) First deny that even a single word they said makes any sense.
2) Then inundate them with a bunch of completely inane questions.
3) Then no matter how carefully or lucidly they answer, simply assert, in the most condescending manner possible, that they have failed to answer your questions and declare yourself the winner of the "debate".

That should be sufficient about 99% of the time. If you need more then try the following

4) Create multiple handles. Attack them with each of them, acting as though it's just a random bunch of strangers who all happen to agree.
5) Cite people's blogs and tweets as "evidence" for your position, but dismiss as "fringe lunacy" anything they post from people with PhD's on the subject that has been published.

If you find yourself in a position where you simply cannot argue with what someone has said then don't panic just pretend that they said something completely different and argue with that while you completely ignore their protests.
 
Here is what I posted in those Wikipedia template pages' talk pages.

About the atomic-volume template:

I have labeled the diagrams in this page "Original Research" because their presentation of the Periodic Table of the Elements is highly non-standard and presented without justification.
That's not original research. It appears you're unfamiliar with the "Left Step Periodic Table".

Major alternative structures[edit]
Left step periodic table (Janet, 1928)[edit]
Charles Janet's Left step periodic table (1928)[3] is considered to be the most significant alternative to the traditional depiction of the periodic system. It organizes elements according to orbital filling (instead of valence) and is widely used by physicists.[4]​

(Source: Wikipedia)

In particular,

The vertical order of rows is flipped.
Seriously?

The alkali metals and alkali earths have been moved from the left end to the right end.
Funny story about the periodic table. Turns out it's periodic. As you run through the elements you find their properties periodically coming back to where they started, as though you were going around in a circle. The natural way to lay them out is therefore spiraling along the surface of a cylinder. We don't draw it that way because book pages are flat. So we take the cylinder and flatten it out, which means we have to cut it somewhere. Point being, where we cut it in order to create a flat layout is arbitrary. The traditional periodic table and the left step periodic table are simply cutting the same cylinder at slightly different positions.

Helium is in the alkali-earth column instead of in the noble-gas column, despite being a noble gas.
One could equally well say of the traditional layout, "Helium is in the 8-outer-electron column, despite having only two electrons in its outer shell.". That's exactly what people would have said about it if Janet's version had been invented before Mendeleev's.

The lanthanides and actinides are inlined instead of below the rest of the table, the usual place for them. This makes the table rather hard to read.
Putting them in the usual place for the sake of making them conveniently fit on a normal-aspect-ratio page is a regrettable practice, because, especially in conjunction with the practice of cutting the cylinder between the noble gases and the alkali metals, it completely obscures the simple underlying mathematics of the periodicity of the elements' properties. Just look at the thing -- there's no obvious pattern or reason for all the steps. The usual layout makes it look like nature just wanted a 7x18 matrix for no apparent reason, but didn't have enough elements to fill it, so took some random bites out of the matrix, leaving three rows incompletely filled, but accidentally bit out too many elements, so threw those back in as an extra 2x13 matrix. The usual layout makes chemistry look like just a mass of arbitrary facts to be memorized. It makes chemistry look like biology.

Here's a puzzle for your consideration. The conventional table runs out of room at element 118. At some point we'll no doubt synthesize elements 119, etc. Where in the conventional periodic table should they be placed? Well, of course we'll start a new row with 119 to 121; but then what? Does 122 go after 121, or under 90 in the extra 2x13 matrix, or starting its own new side matrix, or somewhere else? There probably isn't one chemistry student in a hundred who could look at the conventional periodic table and figure out the sensible place to put element 122.

The layout in the left step periodic table is perfectly simple and predictable. All elements are placed in 2x2 squares, for example, Boron-Carbon-Aluminum-Silicon. These 2x2 squares are laid out in rows, with different numbers of 2x2 squares in each row, with the rows lined up so as to all end at the same point, lined up under the Hydrogen-Helium-Lithium-Beryllium square, and with the number of 2x2 squares in each successive row as follows: 1, 4, 9, 16.

A 12-year-old could look at the left step periodic table and correctly figure out where element 122 will go.

The calculation of atomic size ignores ...
I have no quarrel with the rest of your comments.
 
It is true that carbon has several different allotropes but by factoring in the atomic packing Factor it makes no difference. The calculated size will always be the same.
 
It is true that carbon has several different allotropes but by factoring in the atomic packing Factor it makes no difference. The calculated size will always be the same.
Let's see.

 Graphite has a structure of layers of graphene sheet. Each sheet is carbon atoms arranged in a hexagonal, honeycomb pattern. The carbon atoms are separated by 0.142 nm in each sheet, and the sheets are separated by 0.335 nm.

From Diamond crystal structure, each carbon atom has the same distance from its four nearest neighbors, and those neighbors are arranged in a regular tetrahedron. I calculate that the atoms are 0.154 nm apart.

So graphite and diamond have different closest-atom spacings.
 
Back
Top Bottom